Speaker 0:01

Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.

Meet Dr. Nelson Hendler

Tom Jackobs 0:36

Gentlemen, gear up for a truly enlightening episode of The Heart-Led Business Show. Today, we have the incredible Dr. Nelson Hendler, a brainy beacon of hope who's not just cracked the code on complex neurophysiology, also heartily honed a business that touches lives. With a legacy that spans medical accolades and a passion for pain management, he'll share how he intertwines compassion with commerce. So sit back, relax, and let's dive into a conversation that promises to be an enlightening it is engaging. Nelson, welcome to the show.

Nelson Hendler 1:13

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Tom Jackobs 1:14

Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on the show. I think what we're gonna be talking about is gonna be pretty intriguing for a lot of people and kind of out of the ordinary as well. So I think this is gonna be a fun episode to dive into.

What Heart-Led Means

Tom Jackobs 1:29

But of course, the first question I always ask of guests is, what's your definition of a heart-led business?

Nelson Hendler 1:36

Well, that's actually multifaceted answer. But essentially it's something where you are committed almost to the point of it being an obsession. You feel that what you're doing is valuable, it has application for the betterment of the good. There's a Hebrew expression called tikkun olam, making the world a better place, and that's part of what's behind it as well. And so that's what got me started.

Tom Jackobs 2:06

I love that. That's a great definition of leaving the world a better place and definitely having a passion around that is important 'cause I'm sure having a heart-led business is not always easy.

Nelson Hendler 2:21

No, it is not.

Tom Jackobs 2:22

Let alone business in general is not always that, that easy.

Why Misdiagnosis Happens

Nelson Hendler 2:26

So

Tom Jackobs 2:26

tell us a little bit about your business and what got you into doing what you're doing today.

Nelson Hendler 2:31

Well, as I went through medical school and residency, I noticed that patients were getting short shrift. Doctors weren't paying attention to them, and eventually I found out that patients were misdiagnosed. And we've published a number of articles showing that 40 to 80% of patients are misdiagnosed. I mean, you know, and that's, you know, that's astounding. There's an article in Wall Street Journal about that. They reported about 56% of patients are misdiagnosed. And the typical thing is...

Tom Jackobs 3:04

In general? Or is it...

Nelson Hendler 3:04

in general. In general. That's general

Tom Jackobs 3:07

Doesn't matter like, it could be be a, a, a hangnail or, or a cardiac incident?

Nelson Hendler 3:11

Well, no, it, it's, um... Well, it's an interesting way to look at it. There, there are two ways that a physician will misdiagnose a patient. This is very interesting. These are real statistics from the medical literature.

Tom Jackobs 3:25

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 3:25

The average amount of time a doctor spends with a patient is 11 minutes, during which time he speaks 7 of the 11 minutes. You, you, you can't get a, you can't get a very careful history during that period of time. And then typically, the doctor orders tests that have a high level of false negative

The Limits of MRI

Nelson Hendler 3:49

results. One classic example of this is the MRI. People have neck problems, so they get the MRI of the neck. It comes back normal. Sandhu up at Cornell did a study comparing people with very symptomatic disc versus MRIs that were normal, and then he did a thing called a provocative discogram, and 77% of the time, the provocative discogram found pathology missed by the MRI.

Tom Jackobs 4:21

Oh, wow.

Nelson Hendler 4:22

So think of-- But then another study by Jenkins in New England Journal of Medicine published one. He looked at 98 people with no back pain whatsoever, did MRIs, and found 27% of them had positive MRIs. So you have a test with a false negative rate of 77% and a false positive rate of 27%. You could flip a coin and get better results.

Tom Jackobs 4:49

Oh yeah. Right. Exactly.

Nelson Hendler 4:50

The real issue here is the failure to make a distinction between anatomical test and physiological test. I had a lot of patients involved in accidents, and so the attorney always says, "Now, explain this to the jury." I said, "Okay, well, here's the way it goes. If I had an oven up on the wall, and I took a picture of the oven, and I handed you the picture and said, 'Tom, look at the picture and tell me the oven is hot,' what could you tell me?"

Tom Jackobs 5:17

Hmm. Couldn't tell you.

Nelson Hendler 5:20

But, but if I put a thermometer in the oven and I handed you, said, "375," I said, "Tom, is the oven hot?" You say, "Yeah, sure."

Tom Jackobs 5:27

Yeah. Yeah,

Nelson Hendler 5:28

And that's the difference between anatomical testing and physiological testing.

Tom Jackobs 5:33

So anatomical, you're just looking at a picture, you don't have any...

Nelson Hendler 5:36

That's exactly right.

Why Pain Is Complex

Nelson Hendler 5:38

But pain, most of the patients I see are chronic pain and headache patients. You can't take a picture of pain.

Tom Jackobs 5:44

Right. Yeah. And rarely is it at the place where they say the pain is.

Nelson Hendler 5:49

Well, that's another phenomenon. That's a referred pain, things along those lines. And then again, you have to take into account the concept of convergence and divergence, that a single medical symptom can have multiple etiologies.

Tom Jackobs 6:05

Hmm.

Nelson Hendler 6:06

The best way to, you know, the best analogy is a flat tire. You got a flat tire. Well, is, is it a leaky valve stem, a nail in the tread? Did you hit the curb and knock the bead off the tire? Whatever it is, you got a flat tire. Well, now suppose you've fixed the leaky valve stem and you still have a flat tire. Aha! It could be two things or three things.

Tom Jackobs 6:31

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 6:32

And the, the old thing in medical school, they used to say you can have lice and fleas. So you have to take into account, you have to consider when you have a single symptom, multiple etiology, but sometimes you could have two or three causes for that same single symptom.

Tom Jackobs 6:53

Wow.

Nelson Hendler 6:53

On the other hand, you have single causes with multiple clinical manifestations. The best example of this would be Lyme's disease. A little spirochete like syphilis, and in fact it is very similar to syphilis in many respects. It's a multi-system disease. You get neuropathy, you get arthropathies, you get your arthritis, you get vasculitis. You get all sorts of horrible things from this one single organism which manifests in different ways.

Tom Jackobs 7:24

Interesting.

Nelson Hendler 7:25

So as a matter of fact, 100 years, over 100 years ago, Sir William Osler, when he was at Hopkins, said, "He who knows syphilis, knows medicine." 'Cause it was such a multifactorial disease, and you really had to take all those things into account. When you're approaching a patient, you have to take all those factors into account. Now, the thing, I was the psychiatrist for the Department of Neurosurgery at Hopkins for 34 years. Great guys. I mean, couldn't ask for... I mean, they're world-class. World-class

Tom Jackobs 8:00

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 8:00

Ben Carson, who, you know, separated the Binder twins, and also they have Don Long, who did some of the, the most remarkable surgeries in the history of medicine, chairman of neurosurgery there. Really couldn't ask for a smarter group of guys. But the other thing is when patients didn't get well, they operated on a patient, the patient didn't get well. Must be the patient's fault, not my fault.

Tom Jackobs 8:27

That's right. Exactly, yes.

Nelson Hendler 8:31

And they would, they would send, send the cases to me and go, "Oh, the patient's not getting well. Go see the shrink." Okay. And, and I'd start talking to them, and I'd say, "Well, the reason the patient is angry and depressed is he's just not getting well. It is, it's not the cause of his pain, it's the result of his pain." And the psychiatric literature was filled with such garbage. It was absolute garbage. There was a thing called depressive equivalence. So if someone, according to some earlier psychiatrist who will go unnamed, if a patient had both pain and depression, they said it was a depressive equivalent. The patient wasn't capable of expressing their depression, so they came up with a physical complaint of pain.

Tom Jackobs 9:19

Ah.

Nelson Hendler 9:19

I read that, I said, "That's the biggest bunch of horse hockey I've ever read." So but, you know, when you, when you do a, when you start out in medicine, you study anatomy before you study pathology. 'Cause by studying anatomy, you see what normal looks like, and then you could appreciate the pathology because it's different than normal. Okay? Yeah.

Chronic Pain & Depression

Nelson Hendler 9:47

Okay. So with that thought in mind, I said, "Well, what's a normal patient look like when they get pain?" And the interesting thing is that they go through four stages remarkably similar to the stages described by Kubler-Ross on her book, book on death and dying. The first stage is they, they deny it. You know, it's gonna get well. It's gonna get well. And the second stage is they're sort of hopeful it's gonna get well, but they start bargaining a little bit. "Well, if I can just get a little bit better." And then the third stage is they recognize it's not gonna get well, and they get depressed. And that depression can last three to 12 years. And the fourth stage is they finally accept this, this is the way it's going to be.

Tom Jackobs 10:33

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 10:33

Now, the truth about this when you talk about depression, these patients kill themselves. The suicide rate amongst chronic pain patients is two and a half to three times higher than the general population.

Tom Jackobs 10:47

Totally believe that.

Nelson Hendler 10:48

Yeah, it's, it's pretty devastating. So this is what, this is what really got me interested in this

Why Patient History Matters

Nelson Hendler 10:54

whole process. But how do we improve the accuracy of diagnosis in patients? Well, you gotta take a careful history. You can't take a careful history in 11 minutes.

Tom Jackobs 11:05

No.

Nelson Hendler 11:07

And so what is the value of a history? So man comes into the office, he says, "I have a pain in my thumb." The doctor says, "Okay, let's take an X-ray of your thumb. Aha! There's a vice on your thumb." Okay? "You need a vicectomy." I'm sorry, it's a bad joke. But anyhow,

Tom Jackobs 11:28

That is a bad joke.

Nelson Hendler 11:32

so he takes the vice off the thumb and that's fine.

Tom Jackobs 11:35

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 11:35

Man comes in the office, he has a pain in the thumb. Doctor takes his X-ray. Nothing on X-ray. I don't know what's wrong with you." What's missing from that picture? What's missing from that picture is the doctor didn't take a careful history. The careful history consisting of, "Well, what makes your pain worse?" "Oh, when I hit my thumb with a hammer." "What makes your pain better?" "When I stop hitting my thumb with the hammer." Aha! Now we know the cause of the pain and now we can provide a treatment for the pain. And I know it's a very simple description, but that's the distinction between not taking a careful history and taking a history.

Tom Jackobs 12:17

Yeah. Well, you know I work with a lot of functional medicine doctors, and that's the whole point, is to get to the root cause of what's going on so that you can actually fix it, versus sick care model now is just put a Band-Aid on it with, you know, some medication, whatever, just, you know, and, you know, maybe it'll resolve itself.

Nelson Hendler 12:39

Yeah, that's-- Well, the, the patients themselves expect that. Everybody wants instantaneous gratification.

Tom Jackobs 12:44

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Nelson Hendler 12:45

"Don't tell me what it is. I don't want to... Just fix it." No, it does- doesn't work that way. I can't fix it till I know what's causing it. I mean, if I found a guy with a broken leg and I gave him a shot of morphine, what have I done?

Tom Jackobs 12:58

Yeah, nothing.

Nelson Hendler 12:59

I've treated, treated them symptomatically for three hours.

Tom Jackobs 13:03

Right

Nelson Hendler 13:04

un- until I set the leg, we got a problem. And but it's part and parcel of our-- it's a, a sad commentary in our society in general. Everybody wants instantaneous gratification. And so it's all a matter of symptomatic treatment. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Get out of here. And, uh,

Tom Jackobs 13:23

Yep.

Nelson Hendler 13:24

You know, I think it was Pythagoras told Alexander the Great-- Alexander the Great was having trouble with geometry, and he said, "Your Highness, there's no royal road to geometry." You have to slog through, you have to take the history.

Building a Better Diagnostic Test

Nelson Hendler 13:40

So that's why I developed these tests. And basically, it's a question like for the pain diagnostic test. We found, again, 40 to 80% of patients are misdiagnosed. So the test is 72 questions, 2,008 possible answers, and asks all the questions a conscientious physician should ask if he spent an hour with a patient, but he never does.

Tom Jackobs 14:06

Well, he can't afford to.

Nelson Hendler 14:08

Well, well that's, well that's the other part of it. The insurance companies have really destroyed medicine.

Tom Jackobs 14:14

Yep. 100%

Nelson Hendler 14:14

And so the doctor who used to get, you know, $100 a visit is now getting $50 a visit. So to keep the same income, what's he have to do? He has to see twice as many patients in the same amount of time. You know?

Tom Jackobs 14:28

Yep.

Nelson Hendler 14:28

And that means he's cutting the time in half with the patient. And I know it sounds simple-minded, but that's really at that level.

Tom Jackobs 14:36

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's where we get the 7 to 11 minutes visit.

Nelson Hendler 14:41

Exactly.

The Power of Bayesian Logic

Nelson Hendler 14:42

So the questionnaire, we score the questionnaire using Bayesian logic instead of Boolean logic and, predictive analytics and the little AI that I threw in there. Now, people say, "Well, what's the difference between Boolean logic and Bayesian logic?" Well, Boolean logic is what computer programmers use when they program things for a computer. On/off, yes/no, diagrams. And Bayesian logic is what you and I use to solve everyday problems. I'll give you an example. On Boolean logic, I come out and I look at my car. Does the car have a flat tire? Yes, no. If no, drive away. If yes, is there a nail in the tread? Yes, no. If no, is there a leaky valve stem? Yes, no. If that, is the bead off the tire? Yes, no. And you see, it goes right through this branching diagram. Two problems with Boolean logic. Every choice is 50/50, yes or no.

Tom Jackobs 15:43

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Nelson Hendler 15:45

And there's no provision for multiple problems.

Tom Jackobs 15:49

Ah.

Nelson Hendler 15:50

You're going in a very linear way. That's... And you stop when you get the one, you solve one thing, you stop because you don't keep going. That's not how you solve... You come out and you look at your car and you say, "Oh God, I got a flat tire." I've had 21 flat tires in my life. 17 of them have been due to a nail in the tread. Therefore, the first place I'm gonna look, I got a 17 out of 21 chance of having a nail in the tread. Ah, but two were due to a leaky valve stem. Ah, now I got a two out of 21 chance. Uh, oh, wait, but once I knocked the tire against the curb and took the bead off one time out of 21. So now you have a whole list of diagnoses and differential diagnoses rank ordered from most likely to least likely. But with the Bayesian analytic tool, you never miss a diagnosis. No matter how remote it is, it's still in the consideration, maybe down at the bottom. But after you've exhausted the other two or three choices, you still have that other option.

Tom Jackobs 16:54

Well, that, that's your diagnostic tool. And, and so that's the business that you're in right now.

Nelson Hendler 16:59

Precisely it.

When the Results Are “Too Good”

Nelson Hendler 17:01

Yeah. Now the CEO of my company is a former New York Stock Exchange CEO, Ron Riewald. He headed the largest pain treatment center company in the country, was doing 80 million a year EBITDA. It was on the New York Stock Exchange. And I'm, I'm having trouble selling the test. He says, "You know what it is? Your results are too good." I said, "What do you mean, Ron?" He says, "First off, you can't come into a doctor's office and say you're misdiagnosing the patients 40% to 80% of the time. That's a non-starter."

Tom Jackobs 17:30

Exactly. Doesn't bode well for the physician. You know, it's like, "What?"

Nelson Hendler 17:35

Get, get out of here. Right.

Tom Jackobs 17:37

Right.

Nelson Hendler 17:38

And the second thing is, and the study we did with Don Long, who was chairman of neurosurgery at Hopkins, a great guy. We've written articles together, books together, my old hunting buddy for 35 years, great guy. And we looked at 70 patients who had been in auto accidents, who had normal MRIs, normal CT scans, and normal X-rays, and were called whiplash because all the tests were normal.

Tom Jackobs 18:04

Huh.

Nelson Hendler 18:05

Right?

Tom Jackobs 18:05

But they still had pain or they still had something...

Nelson Hendler 18:08

the doctors were diagnosing the tests, not the patient. So we did the diagnostic paradigm. We found out there were a lot of things what made the pain worse, what made the pain better, sort of like the guy with the hammer. And we said, "Oh, okay." Now these guys, we found that 95% of these patients needed physiological tests like root blocks, facet blocks, provocative discograms. And when we did those blocks, we found that 63% of these 70 patients previously called whiplash, 63% required cervical fusions.

Tom Jackobs 18:44

Ooh.

Nelson Hendler 18:44

Ooh, think about that.

Tom Jackobs 18:46

Yeah. Well, that's rough.

Nelson Hendler 18:49

And this is from the chairman of neurosurgery at Hopkins. This is not some meatball surgeon who's operating because he, he needs a new car. These were well, well-documented, rational selection processes saying this guy needs a fusion.

Tom Jackobs 19:04

Wow.

Nelson Hendler 19:05

That's a very interesting insight.

Tom Jackobs 19:06

Yeah. So tell me about the business and what makes it heart-led for you.

Nelson Hendler 19:11

It's heart-led because, you know, for the reasons I told you. I go into the doctor's office and, and he says, "Nah, I don't, I don't need this." You know?

Tom Jackobs 19:20

Right.

Nelson Hendler 19:20

You know, I c- I can make my own diag-

Improving the Doctor’s Workflow

Tom Jackobs 19:22

So how do you help them, you know, or how do you convince them that they actually need it or should want it?

Nelson Hendler 19:27

Well, I try to understand where their pain points are, if you'll excuse the,

Tom Jackobs 19:33

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 19:34

And usually it's, I hate typing and dictation. I don't know if you've ever seen that, you know, doctors will go into an office and talk with a patient and go out, and then goes into the next office, talk to another patient, talk to another patient. At the end of the day, he's got seven or eight charts to dictate. And he's got all those charts and he has to dictate them. Now he's sitting there and, "Mrs. Smith, was her pain in the left arm or the right arm?" You know, he, and you know, he's... Right?

Tom Jackobs 20:04

Yep.

Nelson Hendler 20:04

Yeah. Or, or he's... And he's trying to either type contemporaneously, and then he's not listening to the patient. So the testing eliminates typing and dictation, and never misses a symptom.

Tom Jackobs 20:15

Nice,

Nelson Hendler 20:18

And it never forgets...

Tom Jackobs 20:19

something that, they well, so- You can give it to them before they even go to the office.

Nelson Hendler 20:23

That's exactly it, Tom. That's exactly it. You give it to the patient before he sees the doctor. Results are available in three seconds before the patient sees the doctor. He reads through. He's got chief complaint, history of present illness, past history, diagnosis, differential diagnosis, diagnosis with a 96% correlation with diagnosis of Johns Hopkins Hospital doctors. And then based on the correct diagnosis, or we assume it's correct because it correlates with Hopkins doctor's diagnosis, it recommends the correct medical test to use. Not just MRIs, not just CT scan, not just X-rays. You know, though we talked about the MRI missing pathology. The CT scan misses 56% of the pathology compared to a 3D CT scan. And then my favorite is the X-ray. Patient's injured in an X-ray, the doctor takes an X-ray. So I say to the patient,

Tom Jackobs 21:21

One view.

Nelson Hendler 21:22

No, no. What makes your pain worse?" "Oh, doc, when I lean forward or lean backwards." "Okay. How about when you hold your head upright?" "No, that doesn't hurt. Only when I lean forward, lean back." "Well, let me see your X-ray." I'm not making this up. More than 95% of the time, Tom, all those X-rays are upright. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs 21:42

Yeah, of course.

Nelson Hendler 21:42

We're not talking medicine here. We're talking common sense. If it hurts when you lean forward, don't you think it'd be a good idea to take a picture when you're leaning forward?

Tom Jackobs 21:53

Right. Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 21:54

And that's, that's what I'm up against.

Consumer Education & Access

Nelson Hendler 21:57

And then on the other side, we also have a business to consumer website for patients who are injured and they're not getting well and the doctor says, "Well, I don't know what's wrong with you. It's all in your head," or, you know, "It's, it's just a sprain or it's just whiplash." And so the consumer can go on and take the test himself and take it into the doctor and say, "Here's what this test from Hopkins says." And the doctor will say, "Ah, you're on the... I don't believe anything on the internet." And that's the end of that. But you can see how that...

Tom Jackobs 22:26

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's probably, the avenue of least resistance is going to the consumer, and it's the, the consumer that pushes to have these available. And, you know, it's the same that the pharmaceutical companies do in terms of advertising,

Nelson Hendler 22:42

The ad- ads

Tom Jackobs 22:44

and

Nelson Hendler 22:44

on TV. You're right.

Tom Jackobs 22:46

It's crazy.

Nelson Hendler 22:46

Hey doc, how about prescribing me this?" Right. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs 22:49

Yeah. "Hey, hey doc, I, I have restless leg syndrome," whatever that is.

Nelson Hendler 22:54

Right.

Tom Jackobs 22:55

"I think I need that purple pill that they're advertising on TV. Can you prescribe that to me?

Nelson Hendler 23:00

Is that right? You try that too? Yeah, that's it. Sure. Okay.

Tom Jackobs 23:05

Yeah, that's crazy.

Nelson Hendler 23:05

And that's it. And, and of course the patients want instantaneous relief.

Tom Jackobs 23:09

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 23:11

And they want relief. They don't want testing.

Tom Jackobs 23:13

Wow. Well, but-- And yeah. And then that, I think that would, that would be part of the education then in terms of the consumer education is, you know, this is step one, step two is the diagnostic, the real diagnostic, and then step three is the result or the,

Nelson Hendler 23:31

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs 23:32

The management of the

Medical Errors & Motivation

Tom Jackobs 23:33

pain.

Nelson Hendler 23:33

Let me give you a thought.

Tom Jackobs 23:35

Yep.

Nelson Hendler 23:35

There are two types of medical errors. There are errors of omission and errors of commission. The error of omission is okay. The doctor does the test and he says, "I don't know what you have." I can live with that. That's an honest answer. I did all the tests. You know, the worst is when he does the test, he does the wrong test, and he says, "Aha, here's the diagnosis," and he goes down the wrong path, which prevents the patient from getting the correct diagnosis and the correct testing. And that's the error of commission, and that's the worst that there is. We saw that. I was president of the American Academy of Pain Management, but I was also president of the Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome Association of America. A horrible disease. You know, a very, very, not

Tom Jackobs 24:25

That's a long...

Nelson Hendler 24:26

pleasant, not a pleasant disease. And we found that 77% of patients told that they had RSD actually had nerve entrapment.

Tom Jackobs 24:38

Hmm.

Nelson Hendler 24:38

71-- I found 71%. My buddy Lee Dillman found 80%. So they had been going down this garden path getting all sorts of blocks, you know, stellate ganglion blocks and all sorts of medications. They weren't getting well. But they weren't getting well because they were treated for the wrong disorder because they had the wrong diagnosis.

Tom Jackobs 25:00

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 25:01

And it's-- So you asked me what makes me passionate about my work. What makes me passionate, I see someone in my office in tears. And, and I used to, I, I'm retired now. I'm 82, so I'm not seeing patients anymore. But you know, they were in tears. "I'm not getting well. The doctor's not listening to me. The tests are normal. What do I do?"

Tom Jackobs 25:22

That's sad. Yeah. So tell us, you know, this has been absolutely fascinating conversation, by the way. I always like to geek out on these medical stuff.

Where to Learn More

Tom Jackobs 25:32

But how can people learn more about this test and you and the work that you're doing?

Nelson Hendler 25:36

Well, there are two websites, but I think, I think you hit it, put your finger right on the bad, the issue, is that we really require some consumer education. So I created... There's one website, www.diagnosemypains, plural, diagnosmypains.com, and it has information on the website. It has information about symptoms. And then if you say, "Oh, that sounds like what I have. I ought to take the test and find out if I'm correct," that's good. So, you know, sort of like the Vogue magazine, questionnaire, do I have PMS? Okay, check, check, check.

Tom Jackobs 26:19

Right, that's great. So, we'll put that link in the show notes so people can go check diagnosemypains.com.

The Instant Gratification Barrier

Tom Jackobs 26:26

And now here's, I know you won't believe this. A couple of my buddies I have a, a Princeton luncheon group I go to every month for 60 years. All my buddies in the DC area from Princeton have lunch together. Okay? So, so they Oh, wow. Yeah, nice.

Nelson Hendler 26:46

And the, and as we get older, the group has progressed from discussions about work, wife, the wife and the marriage and the children to grandchildren, and now it's about what surgery did you have? One of, one of my friends said, "This is not a meeting, it's an organ recital." And so I, I, I... A couple who's, a couple of the people were complaining about stuff. I said, "Well, here, take this diagnostic test. And then, you know, I'll be happy to tell you what we should do." These are bright guys, capable guys. They didn't want to spend a half hour to an hour taking the test.

Tom Jackobs 27:24

Really?

Nelson Hendler 27:25

Really.

Tom Jackobs 27:28

That's crazy.

Nelson Hendler 27:29

Instantaneous gratification. Instantaneous.

Tom Jackobs 27:32

That's right.

Nelson Hendler 27:32

It's too long. I did it for about 10 minutes. That was enough. I didn't want to do it anymore. But, you know, I don't know, I don't know what's wrong with you. I don't want to spend an hour on the phone with you asking these questions. They're all there. Just answer the questions. Nah. So that's part of it. So when the consumer goes to the website, they should be prepared to spend a half hour to an hour answering all the questions. And by answering all the questions, we'll have all the information we need to make the diagnosis.

Tom Jackobs 28:06

Nice.

Nelson Hendler 28:07

But don't expect an instantaneous answer. Don't expect immediate gratification. You have to know what you're treating.

Tom Jackobs 28:14

Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 28:15

And that's the greatest resistance that I've encountered.

Tom Jackobs 28:20

Got it. Yeah.

Nelson Hendler 28:21

Does that make sense?

Tom Jackobs 28:22

Absolutely. And I think that's universal. I think lot of people in the medical field are, are experiencing that as well. And that's, you know, I think especially with functional medicine and, and some of the, more holistic approaches, it takes a lot of time, and people just don't want to spend that time or spend the effort. But I gotta tell you, just going through my own journey with functional medicine, it's worth it to go through that time that you're not just always covering up something, but you're actually getting to the root cause and understanding what the problem is so that you can avoid having the pains or the problems in the future.

Nelson Hendler 28:59

I was, on a radio show much like this out in Palm Springs with a very attractive, hostess. And I said, "Well, listen, you know, you really need to take a lot of time to make a diagnosis. When was the last time a doctor spent an hour with you?" And she said, "When he took me to dinner." That was

Tom Jackobs 29:22

Well

Nelson Hendler 29:22

the best, best answer I ever...

Tom Jackobs 29:25

Yeah. Hopefully not her primary care physician,

Nelson Hendler 29:28

Right, right. So

Tom Jackobs 29:30

Yeah. Interesting. That's funny.

Nelson Hendler 29:31

But yeah.

Tom Jackobs 29:33

Well, that's, that's

Closing Thoughts & Wrap-Up

Tom Jackobs 29:34

awesome. Well, Nelson thank you so much for coming onto the show and sharing your wisdom with the audience and sharing this, the diagnostic tool as well. I think it's definitely needed and I wish more people would want it, right? So they could get

Nelson Hendler 29:48

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs 29:48

to the root cause of their issues.

Nelson Hendler 29:50

I appreciate, really appreciate you asking me to be on your show. Thank you.

Tom Jackobs 29:54

Yeah. No worries. Yeah. And thank you audience for tuning in for today's show. We really do appreciate it. Make sure that you're checking out everything that Nelson's doing, and we're gonna put all those links down into the show notes, so make sure you're down there and checking that out. And also while you're down there, if you don't mind, if you could give the show a rating and review, I would certainly enjoy that. And it also helps others find the show and get the help that they need in terms of building a heart-led business and helping more people from the heart. So until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2 30:28

You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.