Speaker 0:01

Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.

Meet Randall Avery

Tom Jackobs 0:36

All right, ladies and gentlemen, gather around and get ready for an enlightening episode of the Heart-Led Business Show. Today, we're thrilled to welcome the financial virtuoso, Randall Avery, the mastermind behind Deasil Wealth Management. With over 15 years of dazzling experience with a heart full of passion, Randall transforms numbers into dreams, guiding families towards financial freedom. So join us as we explore his journey of blending strategy with sincerity in the world of money management. So let's dive in and discover the magic of heart-led success. Randall, welcome to the show again.

Randall Avery 1:13

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here today and to share, you know, my experience and hopefully to inspire others to have a bigger heart-led business

Tom Jackobs 1:21

That's awesome. And I'm really excited to have you here as well, 'cause I love speaking to heart-led business owners, especially in the financial, management industry, 'cause it, it tends to... Not everybody believes that it's heart-led, and I really do think it is, and I'm interested to hear your story and share that story with the audience as well.

Defining Heart-Led Planning

Tom Jackobs 1:40

But of course, the first question I always like to ask is, what's your definition of a heart-led business?

Randall Avery 1:46

I think to start off, I just want to illustrate what financial planning actually is. Financial planning touches every aspect of your life, whether it comes to family planning, whether it comes to where you live, how you educate your kids. So when I have conversations with clients, it's really about what they value and what they believe. So you really cannot separate my work from somebody's heart and passion. My goal for my business is to really be that soft space for somebody to plant their dreams, their hopes, their aspirations, and have a place where it can grow, it can look at it, they can measure it, and they can analyze it. So for me, that's really what a heart-led business is. Now, with all that said, I do work in the financial service industry, so there does have to be somewhat of a profit motive, and profit should not have a negative connotation. It's really about me having the ability to reinvest back into the services and really allow my clients to do even better. So that's what I think of a heart-led business. One, a soft place for people to express their hopes and desires and dreams. And lastly, have enough profit for me to reinvest back in my business so I can serve even more people.

Tom Jackobs 2:53

I, I love that definition. And that's probably the first time that I've heard the balance between being that, that advisor and that, heart-led, you know, uh, confidant, if you will, to, to your clients. And also being concerned with making sure that you have profits so you can grow the business and help more people, which is really what we all want to do anyway. So I, I love that you brought that into your definition of it. That's awesome.

Randall Avery 3:21

Because when you service customers, hopefully they want you to be just as profitable as they are. in my world, my clients want me to have similar experiences as they do, which means there has to be some economics behind it.

Tom Jackobs 3:34

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely.

Charging What You're Worth

Tom Jackobs 3:36

and I, I talk to a lot of heart-led, especially in the health and wellness industry, and a lot of them believe, "Well, I just can't charge for this because I need, to help them out," and da, da, da, da, da. You know, you... I'm sure you've experienced that as well in your business, or maybe with even clients that are business owners as well. What type of advice do you give to people that kind of have that mindset that, you know, "I'm heart-led, I can't ask for money"?

Randall Avery 4:05

Yeah, I think if you feel like you can't ask for money, I really think you need to dig back to the value that you're actually providing. Because if you really believe you're giving or providing a certain level of value, that should be the point in which you begin to charge. So if you have any hesitation or reservation of saying, "I shouldn't charge that much, then nobody will pay that," go back to what value you're providing and who you're providing it for. That will make you a better business owner, meaning you will actually begin to focus on solving problems versus just providing a service. And once you begin solving problems, you can charge your fair share. And also, I take, in, in America, we have a company called Chick-fil-A. The Chick-fil-A model where I give some services for free and I give services at full price, but I don't discount, and there are different criteria for both. So I think as a business owner, you will-- It's just like being a public speaker. You will speak for free at times. You can't get away from that. But you do have to have some balance and some criteria that your business, that suits your business, the mission and values that your business is trying to achieve.

Tom Jackobs 5:09

Yeah. I mean, and that, that balance too is for a lot of people is very difficult to comprehend. So how did you come about learning that and just embodying it into your business?

Randall Avery 5:22

I think for all business owners, it's a journey. When you go into business, you usually love what you do, so you would be willing to do it for free in a lot of cases. and that's what happened. I did it for a significantly discounted rate. But like I said, you should be, as a business owner, also measuring the impact that you have on your clients' lives. And also you should be measuring the industry and how it charges itself. So it's really just learning that balance between the impact on your client's life versus what the industry is actually charging. What people don't talk about financial planning is the reason I charge what I charge is I had to become somebody you actually trust managing your money. And I think that applies to different service industries. Sometimes it's not exactly the hours you spend working, it's who you had to become for somebody to actually trust you with those lines. Let's take a chiropractor. somebody's literally cracking your back. What they have to do for somebody for you to trust that person to do that to you? So things like that I think we have to take into account. It's not just the hours worked, it's not the actual task, it's the value at the end of the day and the person you had to become to provide that service.

Premium Pricing Benefits

Tom Jackobs 6:30

And part of what you just said there too, I want to dive into, 'cause I had a conversation with a client, actually yesterday, and we were talking about pricing and packaging of her services, and she's a concierge doctor. When I first started working with her prices were very low for a monthly concierge practice. I'm like, that's really cheap." And she's like, "Oh, but my clients, they can't afford," da, da, da, da, da. You know, all the excuses that we always hear. I said, "You need to raise that at least another $100 on top." and, luckily she took my advice. And she said, "I've s- I've been selling more at the higher price than I have at the lower price." And I was like, "Well, of course, because the lower price was too cheap." People are like, "Ah, what am I gonna get for that? It seems, hmm, really cheap." Right? Is that the type of experience that you've come across as well?

Randall Avery 7:15

Yeah. People want to see value in things. people want sometimes to sacrifice. and also I'm sure what your client experience was when people pay a higher price, they're actually more dedicated to the process. They actually follow up. They actually respect you as a professional. So you're spot on. As you charge more, you actually receive the benefits of being perceived as a premium service or product. And that's, that's where we want to be as service providers. We want to be valued. We just don't want to, give the product or service at the cheapest price possible. We want to be seen as the professional that we are, the professional that we worked our time for. And strangely enough, that provides the client a better s- experience because they're gonna be more dedicated. They're gonna actually do the follow through. if you think of a doctor that pays, charges $10 a month for concierge services, how much advice are you gonna listen to versus if they charge $5,000 a month for a concierge service? How serious you're gonna take that advice and demand that you get a return on that investment. And I think the same thing is true for any business owner.

Tom Jackobs 8:23

Yeah. And I think what you just said there is the thing that kind of popped into my mind as well. It really kind of uplevels us as well as a service provider because now, if we're doing $10 a month, we have to have, 1,000 patients to be able to, do what we need to do. And, trying to service 1,000 people, that's ridiculous. Versus, two patients at 500 or 5,000 each, or 10 patients, that's, the same amount, but you're gonna spend much more time, give much more value, to them as well.

Randall Avery 8:55

Yeah. And there's a term, it's like there, there's a worse term, but I'm gonna use a nice term right now. um, a higher price is foolishness guard. It blocks a lot of foolishness. that higher price just weeds a lot of people who let's say are a little bit more finicky, a little bit more price sensitive. It protects you away from that. And there's pros and cons of that, but I think if you're trying to have a scalable business, there's definitely more pros.

Tom Jackobs 9:20

Oh, yeah. You know, one thing, I came out of the fitness industry, and so I did a lot of study of the different, fitness brands that are out there. And, you have the very high-end, like Equinox and Lifetime Fitness. those businesses, the exclusive, the higher priced businesses are thriving. And also, the Planet Fitness and the, Anytime, where it's, 20 bucks a month or 10 bucks a month or whatever it happens to be, those are thriving as well for different reasons. But it's the ones in the middle, the ones that keep going into bankruptcy, like Ballys, which is finally out, but that, that don't survive because they're right in that, that middle spot where they think it's like, "Oh, this is where everybody is." But really it's like that no man's land of like you're in the middle, which means you're mediocre. You're not super high-end and you're not low-end. And I think having that dichotomy of high-end versus low-end, you know what you're gonna get, versus in that middle spot it's like, "Oh, what am I gonna get really?"

Randall Avery 10:23

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs 10:23

Yeah.

Randall Avery 10:23

I think it's all about a solution. So the LA Fitness, the, the Planet Fitness, their solution is just access. Give me access. It's more about network honestly than necessarily working out. So each of those companies provided a solution that people find extremely valuable. And like you said, somewhere in the middle it can get gray. And it can work somewhere in the middle. There's gyms that are in the middle that, that are extremely profitable. But it goes back to solving that problem, not just providing a gym.

Tom Jackobs 10:53

Yeah.

Randall Avery 10:54

Right? it's a little bit more nuance and, and it's a journey. It doesn't happen overnight and, it's just really about listening to who you're serving.

Tom Jackobs 11:01

Yeah. So

Randall's Career Journey

Tom Jackobs 11:03

tell us about your journey and how you got into financial planning and kind of that transition that you went through.

Randall Avery 11:10

So for me, I thought I was going to be a big-time investment banker. So I went to college, I graduated with a finance degree, but I unfortunately graduated in 2008. There wasn't a single bank hiring at that time. And I looked around and I was like, "Well, I have to justify this degree." So I pivoted and took about three years in internal audit. Um, so internal audit for those Who don't know, it's really about checks and balances within a business. And I think any business owner would find value in just learning what internal audit is, how to do a check and balance. So that was a good kind of upbringing for me, especially early on in my career. But I missed finance, so I decided to transition into corporate finance, kind of corporate FP&A, financial plan analysis. And I did that for about seven years from a many different various companies. So that could include, um, Invesco, Turner Broadcasting, a lot of major corporations. And that allowed me to actually study the different business segments. So there were sales that I supported, there were operations that I supported, there was marketing I supported. So I got to see the full picture. But there was always that itch inside of me that said I wanted to go on my own. I wanted to bet on myself. So probably a couple-- about 10 years ago, I decided to open up Deasil Wealth Management, a financial planning firm. But you had to get all the certifications, you had to get all the licenses, you had to do all those different things. And then you had to decide, how do I service clients? What makes me different? What problem do I solve? And that is a never-ending cycle. I tell everybody business is iterative, meaning that tweak here, you tweak there, you tweak here, and it never ends, and you have to accidentally fall in love with that process.

Tom Jackobs 12:52

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That is completely true that it is-- it's constantly changing and listening to your customers, I think is probably the best thing that you can do to identify, one, what the problem is, and two, can you solve it? And, is it something that you're interested in doing, as well?

Niches and Ideal Clients

Tom Jackobs 13:14

So what problem are you solving for your clients?

Randall Avery 13:17

It's a one of the big things is niches, right? And there's a saying that say there's riches in niches. and all that means is if you're able to super serve a subset of people really hard, you can not only have a probably higher fulfillment in your job, but you also can derive a lot of value in which you can charge a lot of value. So there are three segments that I work with. the first one's gonna be pre-retirees, so somebody about 10 years from retirement. The second one's gonna be self-employed, and the third one's going to be an actual practice owners. Given my background in business, I love businesses, but I purely focus on how business owners can actually build wealth for themselves. So I focus on a lot of service-based businesses. So usually with a service-based business, you have to be independently wealthy, meaning you probably won't have a major exit event in your life. Most service-based businesses, they just, close shop and walk away from the business. My job is to make would there income, they're able to build enough wealth to provide for their families and their loved ones, and potentially if, say, they want to, pass down their business to their heirs. So that's where I work in and specialize in for folks.

Tom Jackobs 14:18

Oh, that's awesome. And, uh, you know, speaking of the, like, the practice owners and the exit, when you said that it kind of prompted me to, to think about that service business, it is all about that practitioner. So

Building Sellable Businesses

Tom Jackobs 14:32

how do you advise practitioners who ultimately do want to sell their business at some point and potentially get that exit?

Randall Avery 14:39

Let's talk about the hardest part. The first thing you have to do is accept that your margins are going to go down if you want to create a business with, they call it enterprise value, which meaning a business that can operate without you. Okay? Profits go down, margins go down. Because what are you gonna do with those margins? First of all, you're gonna hire professionals. You're gonna hire premium people who can actually do what you do probably better than what you do. So that's what's happening when your margin goes down. So it's professional management, and you're gonna reinvest in talent. The second thing you're gonna have to invest is sales training. We as the practitioners know how to go out there and get clients, but that was a evolution that we had to do that now we have to train other people to do the same thing. So that's what the first start I advise with that, "Hey, you're-- it's nice having $600,000 worth of income per year, you may have to drop that down to 250 so that you can hire the right talent, so that you can reinvest in your business, so that it can be an ongoing concern." and also there's no guarantee in this journey. we talk about building enterprise value, so you have to accept both truths.

Tom Jackobs 15:44

Hmm. So even if you do put everything in, you have the SOPs, you've taken yourself out of the process, and now you've built up that enterprise value, it does not necessarily guarantee that you're going to find a buyer to, to give you the value that you want out of it?

Randall Avery 16:00

That correct. Um, so, you know, it maybe the wrong time in the market. We just talked about the financial crisis. Poor debt markets. Also, we all-- well, some of us have seen the TV show "Mad Men," the people could just hop out and escape and start their own practice after you have taught them all the skills they needed to operate the practice. And there's a little bit of art and science when it comes to, making sure employees stay loyal to you and making sure they depend on the company. There are some things you can do there, but it's not a guarantee. But that's the bet we make. We've made bets already by going into business. This is just another bet in your life that you're willing to make. Now, I have noticed that if you make those bets, you tend to have a more fulfilling business 'cause the business doesn't so heavily lean on you. It actually is a business that can run by itself. So there's a little bit of a benefit on that journey as well.

Tom Jackobs 16:48

Yeah. I mean, early when I was-- I started my fitness business in 2008 as well, so, you know, good timing there. Um, but yeah, in the first three years it was just, it was me, and it was 15 hours a day, six days a week, and it was a grind. But then once I hired a business coach, and they're like, "You need to, like, get out of the business and start working on the business, not in the business." And when I did that, absolutely my profit went down, but my fulfillment, I was working eight hours a day. And actually I was like, "What do I do with my time?" Like, I was, I was kind of bored. I didn't know what to do. it was actually great.

Randall Avery 17:27

And it's actually a test to see how much you love the business. Because, that extra time probably should somebody could say should be spent doubling down on figuring out extra value you can provide to your customer. Um, so that, I think that is a great, great litmus test. But you're right, it's a journey that all of us business owners have to go on, begin delegating, begin to offload things. And you're right, it's a great feeling to be bored again.

Tom Jackobs 17:52

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I was... and kind of the litmus test that my coach had told me is, like, if you can leave the business for a month, go on vacation for a month, and it's better off when you come back, then you know you've done a really great job with your systems, your processes, and the management. and that, that happened a couple times too, which was really nice. And ultimately I was able to sell it and exit the business, profitably. And the business is still running today, almost 10 years later.

Randall Avery 18:18

Probably still using half Of your SOPs that you wrote up, right?

Tom Jackobs 18:23

I hope so. Spent a lot of time working on those. My gosh.

Randall Avery 18:27

That's, uh... Yep, yep, yep.

Profit With Purpose

Randall Avery 18:29

That's

Tom Jackobs 18:29

So what other advice would you give to a business owner that's struggling with being heart-led and also wanting to make a profit?

Randall Avery 18:38

I would say they should go together. they really should go together. you really need to figure out how profitable do I want to be? What do I need to really fund this business? Because sometimes you could charge so little that you're not even reinvesting adequately back into the business. And what are some ways you can look at that? you can look at industry metrics and benchmarks. What does a profit margin look like? How much should you spending in technology and OPEX? How much should you be paying employees? Because if you're not charging adequately, you could be undercharging the people who are servicing you. So sometimes if it's really a heart-led business, it's a heart-led business for the employees, it's a heart-led business for the vendors, and it's a heart-led business for the quality of services that you're providing. So price is, just a little bit complicated. and I really do believe if you are undercharging, you are actually projecting your values on your clients. You're projecting them to say, "Hey, this is what this is meant to be valued." And that's really not fair. Let the customer determine how much value that product or service is. Because as the service provider, we don't value it as much as we should because we love what we do.

Tom Jackobs 19:50

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I struggle with that constantly, even to this day is, you know, how much do I charge for a service? Because there's really no benchmark necessarily for, a small, medium business that's mostly service led. So, you know, it's, it's like, well, you know, what's my cost? And I need to cover my costs. And so it's just this kind of, you pull it out of the air sometimes and hope that's the price that works. But the nice thing about pricing is you can always change it.

Randall Avery 20:17

Yeah. Pricing one of the most powerful things we as small business owners have. We set the price. We set the margins, and like I said, high prices can ward away a lot of foolishness that you don't have to deal with in life. High prices allow you to invest in your business. High prices make a new client more enjoyable. Have you ever had your pricing so low you're just like, "Oh my God, that's just another task"? Or it could be, "Let's go. Let's dig into this and knock it out the park." Those are two different emotions that we as business owners have felt both.

Tom Jackobs 20:49

Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yes. We've definitely felt that. and, you know, especially in the fitness and the health and wellness, if you're not charging your clients the adequate amount, they're not gonna put all the effort in, they're not gonna get the results that they, that you want them to get and that they want, and then they're gonna tell their friends that, "Ah, you know, that didn't work, and I wouldn't recommend that person." And so, I mean, it's this spiral down to the bottom if you don't do it the correct way.

Randall Avery 21:17

Yeah. For me, the worst scenario, the worst client situation is somebody who signs up all excited and gung-ho, and then they don't participate, don't go through the program, and now their word of mouth is, "Hey, you know, how'd you think about Deasil Wealth Management?" "Well, I kind of didn't get what I want." To me, that is a brand killer. And that goes back with pricing, that goes back with customer selection because there's-- you, you, you don't want that in the ethos because people-- birds of a feather flock together. So I had to learn that myself, is that part of what I do is get results. And if I get results, business will come. If I don't get results, you have to fight a bad name. And that's the journey for most service-based businesses.

Tom Jackobs 22:00

Yeah. Absolutely. I've seen that with clients as well. They get, a rash of bad reviews or something like that, and it's just, it's an uphill battle to try to course correct that. Yeah.

Randall Avery 22:11

And that, that goes back to finding your niche and your target customer base, 'cause some people you will not be able to make happy.

Tom Jackobs 22:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you brought that up too.

Niche Down to Grow

Tom Jackobs 22:21

that's always the first thing I work with clients on, whether it's sales coaching or just general business coaching, is who are you serving? And just being very crystal clear about who that is. And then, you know, I, I always get the whole, you know, "Oh, but I don't want to, ignore other people because I can help anybody." how do you address when people say that to you in terms of, telling them to niche down?

Randall Avery 22:43

Yeah. I think you would be surprised as you niche down, like the millions of problems you can solve within that niche. So let's take healthcare. Let's take somebody who, um, you know, lost a leg but still wants to be in shape. You know, you think, "Well, yeah niche, niche down." But once you dig into all the things that you can do for them, once, once you realize, well, I'm a better professional because I've gone to that level of depth. That's all what I always say. It just allows you to take a level of depth. Also, you don't have to be married to your niche. It could evolve over time, right? I think I start of I wanted to work with young professionals because I was young at the time. that might not be the right time for them to use financial planning. and it doesn't mean I don't have young professionals as clients, it's just that it takes a special young professional to engage in the financial planning process. So there's no point in digging deep, deep down in that. Maybe I should dig deep and down for people who are ready to buy.

Tom Jackobs 23:42

Yeah. Yeah. When you get really clear about who you're going after and then just paint that picture of their whole journey. Where their thought process is until they find you or they have a problem that they need to solve, I think that's, that's such a great exercise. So then you can say, "Oh yeah, like, that's... There's, there is a huge market for that. And if I get really specific about that, not only am I gonna attract that market, but I'll probably attract a broader market that says, 'Oh, if you can do that, you can probably help me with this.'" Which is so counterintuitive, but I've seen that happen over and over and over again. It's just really amazing to watch.

Randall Avery 24:23

I think the bottom line is people wanna know you've worked with people like them.

Tom Jackobs 24:28

Mm-hmm.

Randall Avery 24:28

In the fitness area, do you work with people over 300 pounds? I need to know that you're comfortable with it, you know how to navigate it, this is not your first rodeo. In my space, I need to know that you've worked with somebody with over $2 million. I need to know you've worked with somebody with a blended family and can be sensitive and understanding and not be shocked at every little thing. This is not your first time. It's like you don't wanna be your, your heart surgeon's first surgery, right? I don't-- You know, yes, you're excited of the first day of a restaurant, but you want a restaurant that's operating at full capacity if it's a special event for you, right? That's why we go to the Maggiano or the Pappadeaux type restaurants because we know that they have a fine-tuned process and I can like appreciate excellence. So I think that goes back to people wanna know that you know them, and when they walk in, you can almost anticipate what they're feeling. Mm-hmm. I know the financial emotions that come when somebody's expecting a child. I've, I've been there. I've done that. I know the financial emotions when somebody's about to leave their job, used to a steady income their whole lives, and now have to live off their investments. I've talked through that hundreds of times. That's what they want, and give them what they want if they're asking for it.

Tom Jackobs 25:38

Yeah. Yeah. So clear on that. Um, and I think, you know, Tony Robbins also has said, "Fall in love with your clients. You know, fall in love with your customers." And I think that's such a powerful statement because that's who you're serving at the end of the day. And I can't tell you how many business owners that just frustrate me that they're just thinking about themselves and like, "Oh, well, my business, my business, my business, and I want to make this amount of money." Which is great, but, like, what are you doing for your customers? who is your customer, number one? You know, and it's, it's amazing that when you flip that switch and you just think about the customer, it might be a little bit longer to get that profit, but the profit's gonna be a lot better, and you're gonna feel a lot better about yourself as well.

Randall Avery 26:22

It's sustainable. I have a mentor who's a financial planner, and, uh, I tell him, know, what happens when, you don't really like a customer or not, or you're not providing that much value?" They say that, "Randall, they fire you." Because part of our business is going above and beyond. Part of a healthcare professional is going slightly above and beyond in the way that the customer values. And if you want a sticky customer, you have to be in a mental and emotional place, a heart-led business, to serve that person above and beyond. and you're not gonna do that if you're trying to do mass scale. You're not gonna do that if you're just trying to ink every little dollar out of somebody. It'll happen for a short term, but sustainably it'll be a challenge. just a grind, to be honest with you.

Tom Jackobs 27:06

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the, the flip side of that, it might be a grind at first to, when you're niched down and you're really solving the customer's problems. But then once, once it's kind- that flywheel is going, then it's so much easier. You're just in that pattern.

Randall Avery 27:22

There's always so many emotions on mind about to retire has. Once you master those, um, there could be incremental learning, like incremental everything. But once you master those, you, you tend to you you just get better at dealing with it, I guess. That's it.

Tom Jackobs 27:37

Yeah. Yeah. Get that 10,000 hours in there. Awesome.

Where to Find Randall

Tom Jackobs 27:41

Well, Randall, how can people learn more about Deasil Wealth Management and you and the work that you're doing for, practice owners?

Randall Avery 27:47

So the best way is usually go to my website. That's www.deasilwm.com. There you can see all my information. Now, I understand everybody's not in a position to receive a financial planner. So I authored a book, "Hacking the System by Creating Your System." It's the book behind me right now. It's on Amazon right now. So if you're not ready, but hey, I want the information, I want to learn that, you can go there. I also have a YouTube channel under my name, Randall Avery. That's where I actually interview practice owners. How did they start their business? What is their specialty? And it's almost like a research project for me. it's like you said, double down that passion, love, taking that extra step, having those 10,000 conversations or putting those 10,000 hours in. That's an active process that I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

Tom Jackobs 28:34

That's awesome. That's great. We'll,

Final Thanks and Outro

Tom Jackobs 28:37

and we're gonna put all those links down in the, the show notes as well, But Randall, thank you so much for spending the time with me again today and, sharing your wisdom with, the audience. So I really appreciate it, and I know the audience really appreciates your advice as well.

Randall Avery 28:52

I enjoyed my time. Thanks for having me.

Tom Jackobs 28:54

No worries. And thank you listeners for checking out the show today, and we really do appreciate you, stopping by. So make sure you're checking out everything that Randall's doing. We're gonna put all of those links down into the show notes. And then also while you're down there, if you could give the show a rating and review, that would really help spread the word about The Heart-Led Business Show and help more business owners get a little heart into that business and fall in love with their clients again. So until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2 29:24

You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.