Speaker 0:01

Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.

Meet Dr. Barbi Phelps-Sandall

Tom Jackobs 0:36

Well welcome everybody to the Heart-Led Business Show where passion meets purpose. And today we're diving into the delightful world of Barbi Phelps-Sandall from the charming corners of Cleveland, Ohio, to the vibrant pursuits of integrative OB-GYN. Barbi's journey is as colorful as a painter's palette. With 25 years of heartfelt experience, she's committed to elevating quality of life for her patients. Plus she's had a little adventure sprinkled in like scuba diving in the Galapagos, and sharing laughter with international students. So grab your headphones and get ready to be inspired by a woman who truly embodies the spirit of a heart-led business. Barbi, welcome to the show.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 1:23

Thank you so much for having me, Tom. It's delightful to be here.

Tom Jackobs 1:26

I am so glad you're here as well, and I'm really anticipating today's conversation as well because I love speaking with medical doctors who are transitioning from the traditional medical practice into integrative, regenerative, functional, and just the more holistic approach to medicine. So I'm excited to talk to you about how you're doing that, because I know you're in the process and then how that's unfolding as you go along.

Defining Heart-Led Care

Tom Jackobs 1:56

So I'm really excited about today, but first, I always like to ask, what's your definition of a heart-led business?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 2:06

My definition of a heart-led business includes listening clarifying. And looking for solutions. I know those are bullet points, but that's the core

Listening Clarifying Solving

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 2:21

of it.

Tom Jackobs 2:22

Could you dive into each one of those a little bit more and just what's your vision of what good listening, clarification, and finding the solution really looks like.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 2:33

when I'm meeting with a patient, especially for the first time really with every appointment, but with the first time in particular, I look them straight in the eye. We're sitting level, and I asked them why they came in today what did they expect to get from the appointment. And then I really have to pay attention to what they're saying. Um, I've been to doctor's appointments before where they were typing on a computer while they're talking to me and they're not looking at me, and it's like, I don't really need to be in the room. You know, they can type away what they want. There was no connection.

Tom Jackobs 3:12

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 3:13

And listening attentively does take a lot of energy, so you really have to focus in and still kind of maintain so that you can get through the rest of the day too. So sometimes I jot down a word or two on a piece of paper while they're talking, but I try not to take my eyes off of theirs. Once they get done and most of the time it's about two, two and a half minutes. It's surprising, it seems longer when it's going on, but once they're done, I try to echo back to them what I heard.

Tom Jackobs 3:47

Uh, love that.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 3:49

They might make changes in the conversation then, but that's how you get a little deeper. 'cause oftentimes the first thing somebody says to you isn't really what they mean.

Tom Jackobs 3:59

Yep.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 4:00

And it could just be the verbiage, but it could be they really came in for something else, but they needed an easy way to back into it. So that clarification is the key.

Tom Jackobs 4:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 4:14

And then we talk about options for fixing the problem. And I usually give people a list from the easiest thing to start with, down to maybe more definitive treatment. this is all based on, starts off with lifestyle and then we work down to different options.

Tom Jackobs 4:36

Oh. Nice. that's a really great framework and just for really good communication in general. And definitely something that, I teach in my sales training as well, is that active listening, the, I call it mirroring back. But the clarification, like you said, that is so critical even in, in personal relationships when you're speaking to somebody, like when I'm talking to my mom or someone, mom, let me just repeat back what I heard you say was, and then a lot of times it wasn't like I heard something different than what she was communicating or something like that. And so it saved so much anguish over the years.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 5:18

Uh, no, absolutely, and it has to be done in a very open, Receiving way. It's not the matter of saying, what do you mean by that?

Tom Jackobs 5:28

Right.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 5:28

It's really, you know, letting somebody explain where they're coming from. And you have to feel comfortable and safe too. It's with that opener where they're allowed to talk, it kind of lets them settle in a little bit.

Tom Jackobs 5:44

Yeah. Yeah. And that's brilliant. That's awesome.

Building an Integrative Practice

Tom Jackobs 5:47

So, shifting gears a little bit now, tell us a little bit about your business and what makes it heart-led.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 5:54

I am an OB-GYN, a general OB-GYN, that, went on and got a, did a fellowship training at the University of Arizona in integrative medicine Prevention has always been my passion. medicine is my second career. I was a dental hygienist before going to medical school, and the whole field of dental hygiene is the only one that I'm aware of that is based solely on prevention,

Tom Jackobs 6:19

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 6:19

and that's where it all started. And so it's near and dear to my heart. I've just spread it beyond dentition. So with setting up my practice, the idea was to really work on people, giving people permission to take care of themselves, my women patients in particular. But sometimes a husband is brought along and they're a part of the conversation sometimes. But anyway, the whole idea is we work together. If you work on taking better care of yourself, I can work on helping you on that journey.

Tom Jackobs 6:55

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 6:55

It's often not as specific as this, that I'm verbalizing it to them that way, but I'm giving them ideas to help solve their problems with my guidance.

Tom Jackobs 7:07

Hmm.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 7:08

That's worked really well.

Concierge Model Benefits

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 7:11

So I've had this based practice for a number of years. Insurance doesn't pay well, especially to individual doctors. We don't have anybody to do collective bargaining for us, and I certainly can't do that myself. You're working your tail off because time is money, and I hate that expression, but it is true when you have a business model like that. I came to a point where I need to do something a little bit different. So I started offering concierge services and that helped quite a bit, and it gave me more time to talk with patients. I became more familiar with them. The more I know about them, the more I can do for them, the more I can pick up on things when there is a problem. Um, for example, if a patient of mine ends up in the emergency room. I know them really well. And if a doctor calls me says, your patient's here. These are the problems. This is what I'm doing. Is there anything else? And I can say, okay, stop right there. this is who she is. This is a chronic problem. It's not new. You don't need to do the million dollar workup for them, right? But do these simple lab tests, and as long as you think she's stable. And that's key obviously. She can go home. I can see her in the office tomorrow. And I keep my patients outta the emergency room as much as possible. And sometimes if they get, if they contact me and the answering service is working right, and patients are cognizant that they can use the answering service, and if I talk with them, I can even save them a trip into the emergency room. But it's because I know them. If it's somebody I don't know as well, I may tell them, yeah, you need to go in and be checked out, get a workup done.

Tom Jackobs 9:01

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 9:02

when you know somebody and you know their history, you've gotten along for a number of years. It changes the whole scenario.

Tom Jackobs 9:10

Yeah. Yeah. So in that insurance model, how many patients would you have to see a day to survive as a business on average?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 9:22

Yeah, I try not to look at the numbers because then you get from your heartfelt business.

Tom Jackobs 9:27

True.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 9:28

but we were seeing between 25 and 30.

Tom Jackobs 9:32

Wow.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 9:32

It was painful. It's very painful.

Tom Jackobs 9:34

That is painful. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So good that you've, moved out of that or moving outta that and doing the concierge. Now, something else that I wanna unpack a little bit.

From Hygiene to Medicine

Tom Jackobs 9:45

So you transitioned from being a dental hygienist to an OB-GYN, which is in my mind anyway, that's a little bit of a stretch. Like what, what was, what was it the transition, like for you? Had you always wanted to be an OB-GYN and or how, how did that work out for you?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 10:05

I had delusions of grandeur as a freshman in medical school mean in um, undergrad that I wanted to become a doctor, but I didn't have financial support. I didn't have emotional support. I was floating on my own. And I did this at Ohio State, which there were, 48,000 of us on campus at the time. I was really bobbing along and that's about it. So once reality set in and I was gonna graduate in a few years, I needed to find something that I could really do. And so I was just looking around at the health professions. And I didn't think I wanted to be a nurse because my mother had very bad things to say about the job itself. And I was in a sorority and eight of the members were in the dental hygiene program. And since I had this background in biology and with their influence, I said, yeah, this looks pretty interesting and you can make a good living on it. support yourself with it. I applied and fortunately got in. It was a grueling two years. I started to realize what was deep inside, and if you reach deep inside, you can do almost anything.

Tom Jackobs 11:19

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Then the transition, how did you transition then to.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 11:23

some of the dentists that I work for, suggested I look at going to medical school, or excuse me, dental school and one in particular was very supportive, very influential on me. He had a daughter that was just a few years younger than me with the same dilemma, really wanted to go to medical school, but was struggling a little bit. So he said, I, I think you got a lot more to give and you're obviously interested in doing that, so why don't you take a look around. But he said, I'm very sorry that I never looked into medicine as a career myself. So he encouraged me to be a little more open-minded. He had a patient who was a professor at one of the local universities. He taught chemistry He was also a guidance counselor for students. So he suggested I go and meet with him, which I did. And again, a lot of great support there. nobody, painted any rosy pictures. He said, it's gonna be a challenge, it's gonna be tough, but I think you really, can do it. So instead of going into dentistry, I applied to medical school.

Tom Jackobs 12:32

That's awesome. And the specialty of OB-GYN. Why? Why that specialty?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 12:38

I was really interested in genetics and my, in my background in biology, I took a lot of genetics classes and so that's how I got there. My thoughts were that I would eventually do a fellowship in medical genetics.

Tom Jackobs 12:52

Oh.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 12:54

After going through medical and starting at age 33, going through medical school and then residency, and I started talking about fellowships and my husband said, don't even bring it up. Don't bring that f word up. And I it was another three years beyond where I was. I said, all right, maybe I can step back, work for a while, rethink this. And then out in practice, which was great. I was really enjoying it.

Integrative Medicine Training

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 13:22

And then I heard about Andrew Weil's', program in integrative medicine. And I knew about it for a few years before I decided to make the jump and apply to it. it's a two year program. You spend three years in two, excuse me, three weeks in Tucson during that time with them. But all the rest of it was interactive. And that allowed me to do it. I was still holding down the fort. But I was able to get through this program, which was just absolutely amazing. And it wasn't a fluffy thing being online. We had to take tests along the way and you had to pass things. you wouldn't graduate from the program.

Tom Jackobs 14:00

Yeah. We hope so.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 14:01

Yeah. and some of it really kicks your butt, but we got through it. I think everybody, one person dropped out along the way in my class, but everybody else graduated. We're still interconnected. it's pretty wonderful.

Tom Jackobs 14:17

Well, that's great. Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 14:18

And we learned a lot. It really taught me to be more open-minded. We know what Western medicine is, training the United States, definitely. But we learned a little bit about traditional Chinese medicine. We learned about Ayurveda, not that they were training us to be practitioners, but to have a basic understanding of the benefits of it and when you might break a referral. Now we also learned about physical therapy, about massage therapy, the impact that can have on somebody's life. We learned about complementary cancer care. Absolutely incredible. You can take somebody that's undergoing radiation or chemotherapy and with a few little things added to their day. Make them much more comfortable. So they're not quite as fatigued. They're not throwing up so much. There are ways to prevent hair loss. it's pretty amazing for somebody to enter that process and come out the other end not feeling quite so beat up.

Tom Jackobs 15:25

That's what I love about integrative and functional medicine is 'cause it, we look at the root cause and, look at the whole person, not just that one symptom that they might be coming in for.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 15:36

Right. Exactly.

Tom Jackobs 15:38

So shifting gears again just

Profit With Compassion

Tom Jackobs 15:41

a little bit. Let's talk about the business side. And I know, you don't like to always talk about numbers, but we're gonna talk about numbers because business is business and you can be heart-led and be a profitable business at the same time. So how do you, first of all, how do you balance in your mind and your mindset, being heart-led and also knowing that you need to make a profit in the business?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 16:07

I try not to talk about money with patients. those that have insurance, they're probably gonna be pretty well covered.

Tom Jackobs 16:17

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 16:18

But sometimes they will ask, is this covered by insurance?

Tom Jackobs 16:23

Right.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 16:24

And I'm open about that. It's like this option is not, this option is. Here are the benefits and the cons of each of these. And then you have to decide. But if they're looking at something that they're going to have to pay for or use their, HSA account for. And they're, hesitant about it, I usually say something along the lines of, aren't you worth it? Why don't you think you're worth it?

Tom Jackobs 16:56

Yeah.

Incontinence Treatment Options

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 16:58

And if I can just give you an example, urinary incontinence is prevalent in the United States. It's estimated by one study that 78 million women suffer from incontinence of some kind.

Tom Jackobs 17:13

Wow.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 17:13

Yeah, a tremendous number. And what many of them start doing is using pads or disposable underwear. so if somebody is doing that, I do add that up for them. And I say, look, you're paying $2,000 a year for diapers. And you might live 20, 30, 40 more years. That cost is probably gonna escalate over time. It's not very comfortable. Nobody likes to sit in wet pants, okay?

Tom Jackobs 17:43

Right.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 17:44

Right. Whereas if you do emsella treatment, which uses electromagnetic stimulation of the pelvic floor muscles, you sit on a chair fully clothed, all right? You sit there for 28 minutes with this stimulation. Initially, you do it twice a week for three weeks in a row. That costs a little bit more than your yearly payment for diapers.

Tom Jackobs 18:10

Yep.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 18:11

And you're gonna be out of the diapers and you're gonna be able to wear the clothes that you wanna wear. You gonna be able to go places that you've stopped going to. You can forget about knowing where every bathroom along the way on a trip is located, right?

Tom Jackobs 18:27

It's gonna

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 18:27

free you up. I've given them the options. That's the heartfelt part. The decision they make is the right decision for them. They may change their mind, and I always let them know, you can always come back to this.

Tom Jackobs 18:42

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 18:42

And it's not unusual that they do pretty quickly.

Tom Jackobs 18:46

Yeah. I like that you're giving them like the full picture and that in including what they would spend in alternate, either alternate treatments or alternate solutions to the problem. And what I think people forget and it's good that you bring it up during the conversation, but people forget when they're paying out $20 here. they forget to add it all up for the year. And it's more than. More than $2,000 and yeah, you might have to plop down $2,000 at one time for the emsella treatments, but it's done. There's no more.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 19:26

Right.

Tom Jackobs 19:26

Yeah, yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 19:28

And just along with it goes, their confidence coming back.

Tom Jackobs 19:34

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 19:35

I'm gonna be able to take that plane ride from San Francisco to New York City, and not gonna have to sit on the edge of my seat to make a dash to the bathroom or to hope that there's not a long line there when I need to get there. Otherwise I know I'm gonna have an accident.

Tom Jackobs 19:54

Ugh.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 19:55

So that's pretty amazing.

Tom Jackobs 19:58

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 19:59

Incontinence itself is very isolating, wearing diapers probably is too. it's a small solution to a bigger problem, I think. And there are a number of things in women's healthcare that are like that. some of the medications that we use are not particularly pleasant with the side effects, but early on in the game when people were trying to work out how to treat incontinence, I said, well, this particular type of medication that's used in psychiatry, but one of the side effects is people have a hard time urinating.

Tom Jackobs 20:34

Oh wow.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 20:36

All right, so you could take a much lower dose than somebody that's got a mental health problem does, It's gonna make it harder to urinate, so you're gonna be sitting in there longer, but you're less likely to peak. Okay.

Tom Jackobs 20:48

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 20:49

It also causes constipation, which is also unpleasant, that's where it starts. You're trading one thing for another.

Tom Jackobs 20:54

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 20:55

My goal is to help them trade the right thing in. To get over the problem.

Tom Jackobs 21:02

Yeah. I think that definitely speaks to the heart and having the heart-led business and then the way that you position the solutions and offer to them in a balanced way, that's protecting your business because that's really good sales in general is give all the options. This is what, and then give your recommendation because you're the doctor and then let them make that decision. I think that's a really good balance of, being, profit, knowing that you need to make a profit and you need to, you need to pay the bills. And you can still be heart-led at the same time.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 21:38

And 95% of the time this is gonna be successful.

Tom Jackobs 21:42

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 21:43

Now, I can't lie to them and say, this is going to fix the problem. It might just make it better, but better is certainly not a bad place to be when you're isolated.

Tom Jackobs 21:55

Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 21:55

When you're leaking urine.

Tom Jackobs 21:57

Yeah.

Lifestyle Support and Pilates

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 21:58

And I also encourage patients, again, getting my integrative training into this, I encourage them to start taking Pilates. Once a week ongoing, once a week, it's gonna help tighten your core muscles that's gonna help support your pelvic floor. You're making an investment in yourself, but that doesn't mean, you do these things, you walk away from it and everything is solved. You need to continue that investment. But getting them out of the house to go to a Pilates class, okay, that's a part of the game too. They find that they like it, they're interacting with people in the class. They might start taking more, they might get more interest in their overall, physical health. And they usually do that. I'm really impressed because some studios around here charge an arm and a leg. For your classes, you can find other things that are less expensive and really just as good. But they're willing to pay a little bit for that too. So they're investing in themselves.

Tom Jackobs 22:56

Yeah. And that's such a good thing. I know when I was in the fitness realm. Whenever a lot of the women that came in, it was always, they put everybody else first for the longest time, and now they were at a point in their life and their career where now they could focus on themselves. And it was like this whole relief and release from them of a burden now. Oh, that I get to take care of myself and they just love it as well. So it's, yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 23:24

That's really true, and it's hard for them to make that leap from taking care of everybody else to being able to focus on themselves. it's hard for them to spend a little money on themselves. they might have a kid In college, and I get that. I understand that completely. But that investment goes a long way.

Tom Jackobs 23:41

Yep.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 23:42

It goes a very long way.

Tom Jackobs 23:43

Oh yeah. Because if you can't take care of yourself, how are you gonna take care of anybody else?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 23:47

That's right. That's right. But they sleep better if they're not incontinent because they don't have to get up at night.

Tom Jackobs 23:54

True. Yeah. Yeah.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 23:55

makes for a happier person all the way around.

Tom Jackobs 23:58

Hundred percent.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 23:59

It's amazing.

How to Connect and Closing

Tom Jackobs 24:02

That's awesome. Barbi, how can people learn more about you and your practice?

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 24:07

I have a website. It's drbarbi.com. Barbi is B-A-R-B-I. So D-R-B-A-R-B-I. com. And our website includes much of this information. My office is located in Mountain View, California. The office phone number is (650) 988-7830. while I do have to see patients in the office face to face for a first appointment, some things can be done, through telehealth appointments. If there are other things that need to be explored and can be done that in a consultation fashion, and I've got an amazing staff. Come meet us.

Tom Jackobs 24:48

Awesome. Well, thank you Barbi for coming onto the show and sharing your wisdom and sharing your experiences being a heart-led business owner. I really do appreciate you taking your time.

Barbi Phelps-Sandall 24:58

Thank you for having me, Tom. It's been a real pleasure.

Tom Jackobs 25:02

Absolutely. And thank you show listeners for listening into the show today. We really do appreciate it. Make sure you're checking out everything that Barbi's doing. We're gonna put all that down into the show notes, so you can just click on the links and it'll take you right to our website as well. And, make sure you do check that out. And if you're in the mountain view area, go say hi. And then also if you could do us a favor and give the show a rating and a review that just helps spread the word about the Heart-Led Business Show, and helps others realize that you can have a heart-led business and still make a profit at the same time. And until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2 25:41

You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.