Speaker: 0:01

Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.

Tom Jackobs: 0:36

Welcome back to the Heart-Led Business Show. Today we have the delightful Kathi Burns zooming in with us, a board certified professional organizer and personal stylist. Kathi has spent two decades helping others break free from the chains of chaos. With her Heart-Led business, she brings magic to the mundane, turning clutter into clarity and confusion into creativity. Get ready to dive into her journey of entrepreneurial excellence and discover how to organize not just your space, but your heart and soul, too. Kathi, welcome to this show. I'm so glad you're here.

Kathi Burns: 1:13

Hello. I am so happy to be here. This is gonna be a great conversation for sure.

Tom Jackobs: 1:18

It absolutely will be because I love organizing I should say I love things that are organized I can't think of something that's more Heart-Led than just clearing the clutter and of the mind of the space and just allowing you to be in your zone of genius. So I can't wait to dive into your story and share it with the listeners here. But first I always like to ask, what's your definition of a Heart-Led business?

Kathi Burns: 1:43

Well, I believe that a Heart-Led business is when you have a business that aligns with your soul's purpose or dharma as such. I always say that your Dharma is doing something that you love, that you could do standing on your head of sleep. In other words, it's a natural inborn skill set. And it took me, 40 years to figure out, what are my inborn skill sets that I can bring to the world with joy? So I think that finding something that comes very natural to you, is like a dharma, a souls type of purpose. And when you're on purpose, your messaging is clear. Your mind is clear and it's easy, right? When you're in, when you're leading from the heart, you're leading from your soul, which means that it should be easy and it should be flowing easily from you to other people.

Tom Jackobs: 2:30

So when I'm doing my books, I'm definitely not in the zone, so I'm not being Heart-Led at that point. Is that what you're saying?

Kathi Burns: 2:38

No. There's always aspects of the business, and I love what you said earlier, Tom, that you know you love being organized, just not getting organized. That is so typical of all of my clients. It's like everyone's to be organized. They just don't wanna get organized. There's aspects of our business that we don't really like to do but sometimes we have to do, but you know what, sometimes we can delegate them.

Tom Jackobs: 3:01

That's absolutely right.

Kathi Burns: 3:02

What you hate, you delegate and if it's below your pay grade, delegate it.

Tom Jackobs: 3:07

That just makes financial sense, right?

Kathi Burns: 3:09

For sure. But we don't do it like we don't let go of the reins because we're entrepreneurs and we're in charge.

Tom Jackobs: 3:16

Absolutely. I wanna dig into that statement, but first I want to get back to the dharma and the skill sets that come naturally to you. And I love that. And you said, how long did it take you to figure out?

Kathi Burns: 3:27

40 years.

Tom Jackobs: 3:28

See, it took me 50, I'm in the remedial organizing area.

Kathi Burns: 3:32

You know, Sometimes your biggest skills are elusive and they hide from you. That's what happened to me I didn't know what my superpower was until I had a year off to introspect and figure out what's Kathi about and I think it takes space. My original company was called Add Space to Your Life because if I would not have had, I had a series of events, I had a year off to reinvent myself and if I had not had that space, I would not have figured this out. I would not be sitting here today as a professional organizer. No way know how. It would've never come to me.

Tom Jackobs: 4:12

Why do you think that is having that space allows you to do that?

Kathi Burns: 4:15

Well, when you have space, you can think clearly. When you can think clearly, you can be on purpose. When you're on purpose, you're living your dharma. When you're living your dharma, you have freedom. So it all goes together. But if you don't have space, then you can't move forward. My first book, how to Master Your Muck was called Stuck in the Muck of Your Stuff as my working title, and I was literally stuck in the muck of my title. It took me 3 years to publish that book because it was so catchy, right? And when it turned into mastery, how to master your Muck. The book got published like that. So there's all these small little things that catch us up in life. I always see a seemingly insignificant thing can have larger than life results, shifts, mental patterns, words, all that good stuff and oftentimes they're very small. I didn't know what my superpower was until I had that year off.

Tom Jackobs: 5:11

And your superpower is

Kathi Burns: 5:13

change.

Tom Jackobs: 5:14

change.

Kathi Burns: 5:15

I love change.

Tom Jackobs: 5:16

Most people don't like change.

Kathi Burns: 5:19

Exactly. That's why I have a job. I've had 7 careers and I love change and I change all the time. And what I found, and this is the funny part about the whole Dharma thing, right Tom?

Tom Jackobs: 5:31

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 5:31

I found out that I love change. I thrive in change. I'm not afraid of change. Change happens every day anyhow, so you might as well embrace it and go for it. So, it's my superpower and most people are afraid of change. What I do as a professional organizer is I start on the external non-scary stuff and I help people shift and change and release on their environmental level. And once they are able to let go. They can change faster, quicker, easier, with more grace. I always say letting go is a muscle. Most people don't wanna let go. They don't want anything to change. They want it to be just like it is, right? But, if they start letting go of things and that's why I started my career 20 years ago, was like on the physical decluttering, right? If they learn how to let go and declutter and say bye-bye to those things that no longer serve them, then they can do the same thing with life. When life hits them, they can actually say, oh yeah, it wasn't that scary. I can change, I can shift, I can see a different way.

Tom Jackobs: 6:31

Yeah, so you just ease them into it. Start with something that's simple and I love that.

Kathi Burns: 6:35

And most people's letting go muscles are atrophied.

Tom Jackobs: 6:38

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 6:38

And they're not used to letting go. They're used to holding on tight and not letting status quo, letting everything stay the same, right? But then once they exercise, they're letting go muscles, they're better able to move forward with grace and with ease and with flow, that's what my job is being a Heart-Led, is to help people learn how to let go with ease, grace, and flow, and no fear. Get rid of the fear because change is gonna happen anyhow. See, might as well learn how to be powerful and work through it and actually make change for yourself intentionally.

Tom Jackobs: 7:11

I mean, you're not gonna die from making change usually. If you change to go in front of a truck or walk in front of a truck, I guess that would do it. But generally speaking, it's not that dangerous to make change. So it's that certainty being uncertain. One of the TV shows that I love to watch or used to love to watch was Hoarders. So have you experienced that in your organizing life.

Kathi Burns: 7:32

So Dorothy, the producer is a friend of mine and a colleague, and a hoarding is a whole different ball of wax. So I'm a board certified professional organizer. I've been doing this 20 years. I am not a certified hoarding expert professional. There are credentials for that.

Tom Jackobs: 7:49

Ah.

Kathi Burns: 7:50

Dorothy does that if I run into someone who's a hoarder, because hoarding is a disease. Just like alcoholism.

Tom Jackobs: 7:57

Okay.

Kathi Burns: 7:58

So what you'll see on the Hoarder show is that there's always someone besides a professional organizer, there's usually a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a social worker. There's medications there's sometimes city codes people. So it's a whole huge thing. When I run across a hoarder, I will refer them onto my girlfriends who are certified in as professional organizers and hoarders because I like people to graduate. My goal is to have them get empowered, graduate, move forward, maybe talk to'em in 5 years when they have something else that they need to like, move through, write and remove whatever mucks like they're up against, call me back. But I like them to graduate. Hoarders don't really graduate. It's just an ongoing thing.

Tom Jackobs: 8:44

Like they have to manage the disease is that, and like a alcoholic is always an alcoholic. You just manage it.

Kathi Burns: 8:50

Through medication, through support. It's funny because the professional organizers that are qualified. To work with hoarders. They're generally the retired nurses or the social workers. They're the, those are the people that are, serve them really well. One of my best girlfriends loves working with Hoarders because that's her jam and she gets it and she loves them, and she wants to help them. It's a definite heart thing,

Tom Jackobs: 9:14

Oh yeah.

Kathi Burns: 9:15

Because oftentimes it can be environmentally harmful.

Tom Jackobs: 9:18

Yes, of course. Yeah I've seen those shows. I'm like, oh my gosh, I couldn't imagine being one of the cleanup crews.

Kathi Burns: 9:24

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 9:25

But then for, so for you adding space I love that by the way. And it brings up both the physical space, but the mental space and all that spiritual space as well. What type of transformations have you seen from your clients in terms of going from what they would consider disorganized to now organized and everything in place?

Kathi Burns: 9:49

Wow. I have so many stories. So what Someone that just came to my mind, and I have so many stories, but this particular lady came to my mind. So she was a very successful graphic artist. She worked from home. She called me in to help her with her paper flow and with her digital chaos and that type of thing.

Tom Jackobs: 10:07

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 10:07

And we're working together and we got all of her business organized as such. And she, I always like to talk to them about their long-term goals, like what do they want their life to look like in the future?

Tom Jackobs: 10:17

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 10:18

it came up that she really wanted a lifemate. And she didn't have a lifemate. She hadn't won one for five years. She was out of a relationship. And so I said let's gimme a tour. So we toured her apartment at the time. And she had this gigantic wall to wall closet, like six door closet.

Tom Jackobs: 10:37

Oh wow.

Kathi Burns: 10:37

Full completely full. Her bedside tables were overflowing. She had a king sized bed. Bedside tables were overflowing. She wasn't a hoarder, but she was packed to the jam, right? Where's room for a mate. Where's mate gonna fit into your life? And she's oh, good point. So what we did was we cleared out three feet of space. We got rid of a bunch of clothes, cleared out three feet of space, left three feet open in her closet for hanging clothes. Bedside tables clear minus alarm clock in a plant or something like that. And the drawer is empty, right? Then I went on my merry way. So She gets with me. I know I get with her about, I think six months later and I'm saying, what's going on? She goes, oh, I'm in Colorado. I met a man and we moved in together. She added space for the man. You have to have space if you want new things to come into your life. That's why I love what I do. I've had another person who their business was just stopped at a standstill and I looked at their desktop. I couldn't even see the desktop actually. It was so full of icons and graphs and all that. And so we started clearing and we started making order, and we started putting things away and throwing things out and trying to get the desktop so we could actually see it. We couldn't even see the mouse actually on our desk at that time, so we cleared it all out. landed a really big client. In fact, what happened was she didn't need all the small little clients that she had been working on. She had one client that, that set her up. She's organized, streamlined, has that perfect client, or she doesn't have to keep on the wagon of trying to find clients, ang she's servicing this client with ease and flow and grace because now. She can see her desktop, she can find her files. She can be really articulate and help that client in the way that she needed to help them.

Tom Jackobs: 12:30

It reminds me of this old cartoon that I used to see. It was like a cluttered desk is a clear mind, which. A cluttered mind would be a clear desk. That doesn't make sense.

Kathi Burns: 12:41

Well, I have clients who will argue, I remember sitting in the law department of Sempra Energy, and I'm speaking with this lawyer and he's just piles everywhere on paper. And, but he's no I'm organized. I know it's in every single pile. like, okay, great. How much RAM is this taking in your brain to remember what pile and what layer deep is the pile for you know, where is your mental capabilities now you're spinning all your manal capabilities on trying to remember what's in each pile. Why don't you free up your mind I say this to do law, right? You know what, piles are symbols of things left undone.

Tom Jackobs: 13:21

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 13:21

So basically any pile is a lack of decision, okay? You're either avoiding it, you're not deciding, or you just plain don't know what to do with it. That's the only reason that a pile exists in your life at all, is indecision, procrastination, or avoidance. He was. Thinking that he was really efficient. I'm professional. I know where things are. It's I don't care. Really, that's not where you should be using your brain power.

Tom Jackobs: 13:48

Yeah, no, that's so right. And that it, when you say that brings me back to like email inbox, right? That's the famous clutter. And I, I just invested in a program called Superhuman and it's kinda AI driven email thing, but it forces, I shouldn't say force, but it encourages you to go to inbox zero. And by, and what I love about it is that, there's things in my inbox I was like, yeah I'm gonna get to that. But it's not important right now, but it's still in the inbox. So it still creates that stress of, oh my God, there's still emails. So their process is you delay it, you just, okay, when do I wanna work on this? Oh, Friday I'm gonna push it into the Friday category. And so it goes outta the inbox and comes back on Friday when you wanna work on it.

Kathi Burns: 14:37

Mm-hmm.

Tom Jackobs: 14:38

I've been working that system and granted, I'm not always inbox zero but it's like 20, 20 emails in my inbox, which I'm like, I'm so proud of that. And what's really interesting is I don't generally look for the old emails. I don't have to. They were there anyway, but I was like, I was using all this, mental capacity, but also computer capacity to store all this stuff. And I was, I guess I don't need that, and it did absolutely free up space in my head.

Kathi Burns: 15:09

When you said that I was chuckling to myself because I think inbox zero is really a hard goal to meet unless you have something like the Superhuman Program. But typically and I'm teaching this in my Google workspace, typically an if your inbox has over a hundred or a thousand or some of my clients have 89,000 emails. They're using their inbox as a task list and it's not designed to be a task list. It's meant to be an informational management system where you delegate and move things out into other areas. So if you're, you, if you're drowning in inbox, it means you, you're using it in a capacity that's not really designed for.

Tom Jackobs: 15:46

Yeah. Yeah. And somebody else explained to me too that the emails that you receive are other people's call to action, not your own. So like, why are you worried about all it's, does it, is it really affecting you? They're pushing that onto you rather than you accepting it sometimes.

Kathi Burns: 16:06

I'm glad you know that I teach that all the time. So anytime you go into your inbox, you're being reactionary. Unless you need something, you're not being proactive. You're reacting because there's not a single email in your inbox that does not want you to do something. There's not a single email that you could show me that doesn't want me to do something. Even your email that says, Hey, here's the link to join the show.

Tom Jackobs: 16:28

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 16:29

Call to action. So you have to realize that you wanna be as proactive as you can in business all throughout the day and be less reactive. So I'm continually challenging my clients to only hit their inbox twice a day at the most. Don't keep your inbox open. Don't live in your in. You'll go off onto some trail. Back in the day I used to say I'd end up in Zappos buying shoes, but they always want you to do something in there.

Tom Jackobs: 16:55

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, just for the listeners, if you get an email from myself or Kathi, those are important emails, so don't delete those must go to the inbox and keep'em forever. Right. start, archive, save, whatever.

Kathi Burns: 17:12

No, I see. Star them. They're very important. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 17:15

Yeah. And color code. You could color code too. That's awesome.

Kathi Burns: 17:21

That's funny.

Tom Jackobs: 17:23

I always like to talk a little bit about the business side of having a Heart-Led business in terms of, the financials and just running a business in the business side.'cause a lot of people are scared of having a Heart-Led business and that it's oh, I don't know if I can make money or should I charge money for this? So how have you overcome that internal struggle of I wanna really help people and I wanna make some money doing it.

Kathi Burns: 17:50

The way I look at it is this, if I'm not making money, I can't contribute to the world, and if I don't, if I don't charge for my services are therefore not valuable to that client. The client has to have an investment in the progress of their journey, and if they, they don't have to invest with me if they invest with me, that means they're committed to the journey and the process of change.

Tom Jackobs: 18:14

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 18:15

They have to put their 2 cents in to feel like, yes, I'm actually going to do this. If you don't charge and everything's complimentary you are not, number one, you're not able to give back and give to the places that nurture your soul. But most importantly you're depowering the client. You are not allowing them to be invested in the process. In my opinion, you're doing a disservice. To Not charge them. On their end and on your end, obviously you have to make money and run a business, but you've gotta have a commitment from the client that they're vested and they will do the work that's important to make the change of whatever you're helping them do.

Tom Jackobs: 18:56

Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me of just recent, recently I purchased two different programs just to kinda brush up on Facebook ads because that's really, it's over my head, but, so one, one program was$47. And it looked really good. I bought it and I didn't go through it. It's still somewhere, I don't know. I don't even have the user ID and password probably anymore. I don't know. It was only like three or four months ago. But then there was another program that I bought and that was$7,000.

Kathi Burns: 19:27

Mm-hmm.

Tom Jackobs: 19:29

Guess what I went through very quickly.

Kathi Burns: 19:31

You learned, you made change.

Tom Jackobs: 19:33

Absolutely. And I feel sorry for the other business owner because I'm sure that program was probably equivalent, maybe, I don't know. I didn't go through, because it was too cheap.

Kathi Burns: 19:44

It's such a good point. Such a good point right there. And if you want to be of value, you need to be valuable.

Tom Jackobs: 19:52

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Kathi Burns: 19:53

That's what I find with a lot of my clients are artistic, creative women entrepreneurs, and they feel bad charging money. And I'm like okay, you should feel bad not charging money. You are dis you're being a disservice to your clients by not getting them invested in the process. Just like you say 47 bucks. How invested are you for making a change? Nah, not

Tom Jackobs: 20:15

so much. Yep. Hundred percent.

Kathi Burns: 20:19

And I'm saying this to myself too because, I charge high value for my consulting, but my online products, I'm like I should be charging more, but I don't.'cause it's that fear thing, right?

Tom Jackobs: 20:31

Yeah. Nobody will buy it at that price point. Is it really that valuable? It's all that head trash going through. Yeah, totally. I totally understand that.

Kathi Burns: 20:38

We all go there in, in one line or the other, but we have to sit ourselves down. Have a good girl, big girl, big boy, talk to ourself and say, look, we are valuable, we are of value. And the more we charge, the more powerful we are, as a coach, client, consultant, what, whatever.

Tom Jackobs: 20:55

I think that you said it at the beginning, like it enables you to give to the world. As well. If you're a charitable person, you love to give things away. Gosh, you gotta make some money to be able to give it away.

Kathi Burns: 21:07

Exactly.

Tom Jackobs: 21:08

How did you transition? So did you work before in a, like a profit led business versus a heart business?

Kathi Burns: 21:18

You know what, I have always followed my heart, so way, back in the day, and I've always been woo, but like I didn't, I never really talked about it, and for a long time. But the beginning of my one of my first jobs I wanted, I fell in love with sailing. So I became a US Coast Guard licensed captain so that I could get paid to sail. So I did that, right? And so I was just off sailing around getting, making money and being carefree and all that. But I remember sitting in the middle of the Gulf Stream at night on watch, thinking about everything that was back in my apartment, and I'm like, wow, none of that is even relevant. So I'd get home and I'd purge. Every time I got back to shore, I'd just throw stuff out. Then later on I became a travel writer because I wanted to get paid to be a tourist. So I became a travel writer. I was on the road 42 weeks a year and living out of a suitcase, loving it. That's a perfect thing to do in your twenties and early thirties. Just travel, travel. Let's get paid to travel. Did that, so that was le my heart was leading me into this vagabond thing, right? But then I get back to my apartment and I purge. Then I got into an area where it wasn't as much Heart-Led. It was let's make money. And that's where things started to get like that for me. And a lot through a lot of things happen. And that's how I ended up having

Tom Jackobs: 22:36

it was like friction, right? Is that what you mean? Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 22:39

Friction. Yeah, you can tell, it's not water over a rock. My husband and I have that idea that things should flow, ease, flow, right? Like water over a rock and if it's like water over a canyon.

Tom Jackobs: 22:53

No, it's not gonna work really well.

Kathi Burns: 22:55

So yeah, there have been times the one chunk of my life. I think about where I wasn't Heart-Led and I wasn't doing my heart song and just being in on purpose was during that timeframe. And fortunately world events, happened. And nine 11 happened and we lost our whole publishing agency and our whole printing plant and all that good stuff, which was a blessing. It was a blessing in disguise because. We weren't happy, it was my husband and I doing business and we weren't happy doing what we were doing, so that freed us up. That's how I ended up with a year off, because I've been working since I was 17. Right? Uh, just work, work, work, work, right? But following my bliss, but then when I hit that then I had a year off to reinvent myself. And because I didn't have to work then. Is the only reason that I had the clarity to figure out that I love change and what can I do about that? What can I do? What kind of job can you do that you love change? Help others change.

Tom Jackobs: 23:56

Yeah. Then you're in it all the time. I love that.

Kathi Burns: 23:59

I'm in it all the time.

Tom Jackobs: 24:00

Yeah.

Kathi Burns: 24:00

I love helping people change because I see the metamorphosis. I have story after story. They get the guy, they get the car, they get the raise, they get the house whatever they want that they get. If they add enough space, they get it.

Tom Jackobs: 24:13

Yep.

Kathi Burns: 24:13

With intention, right? You add space with intention and you get where you're trying to go.

Tom Jackobs: 24:18

I love that. Yeah. And the other thing that I wanna really emphasize for our listeners too is that giving that mental space, now you don't necessarily need to take a whole year off, but even taking a day or a morning to just sit And reflect and just clear, let the mind just go where it goes. You get so much clear. I know I get a lot of clarity by doing that. And I think even like Warren Buffet, I think. There's a story of him where, I think it's on Thursday mornings his calendar's just blocked out and he goes to the barber shop for four hours, which I don't think, he's obviously not getting his haircut for four hours. He's almost as bald as I am, but it's his time to think and reflect and just not have the pressures of people asking questions, him, like doing things. And it's just, it's, I think he's a billionaire, so it probably worked well for him.

Kathi Burns: 25:13

Yeah, he is chitchatting, and I find the same thing, Tom. If I set aside time at the beginning of my day, after my coffee, which seems weird to just get quiet and even if it's just for five minutes, my whole day flows better.

Tom Jackobs: 25:27

Yep.

Kathi Burns: 25:28

It's magical because you don't really think that anything's happening, but then you can look back at your day going, wow, that was just like ease. Ease and flow. Ease and flow. You're much more tapped to know, turn left, turn right, go straight faster, slower. You know internally because you've given your mind that space to do its thing.

Tom Jackobs: 25:49

Yeah. More people need to do that for sure. And so keep the stress levels down, keep, you're running in just getting new ideas and running the business just fine.

Kathi Burns: 25:59

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 25:59

Yeah. So Kathi, this has been just a fantastic conversation. I've loved it. I hate to cut it short, but we are at that time. But tell us how can people learn more about what you're doing and potentially work with you?

Kathi Burns: 26:12

Easy to work with me. Just go to book, go to chatwithkathi.com, K-A-T-H-I chatwithkathi.com. I would love to speak with anyone who's what am I supposed to be doing? Or, where I'm stuck. And I'll help you identify what might be in your way because the reason that professional organizers have a job like myself is that we are an objective observer. So I'll ask a lot of questions to see where do you wanna go? Where are you at right now? And I can really quickly identify where you might be stuck. What muck are you stuck in? And once you identify that, once you put your lens on it, it's much, much easier to do something about it. But like I say, it took me 40 years to figure out what is Kathi's superpower change. That's so elusive, right?

Tom Jackobs: 27:00

Right.

Kathi Burns: 27:01

We all have that. So go to chatwithkathi.com. Free session no sales thing. It's just trying to put you on your path, so to speak. And if you want to work together, then we work together. But either way, you're gonna have, you're gonna walk away with a little bit more insight into you. Because we can't see ourselves oftentimes.

Tom Jackobs: 27:20

That's awesome. And it's not, and to be clear, it's not just physical organization. It can be computer, it can be mind, it can be anything that needs purpose, structure organization. Is that right?

Kathi Burns: 27:33

Yeah. And I say I organize space, time, data, and objects, so you know, I don't organize your brain, but through organizing any of those other things, clicks.

Tom Jackobs: 27:45

Yeah. That would be scary if you could organize somebody's brain.

Kathi Burns: 27:50

I have a, I have therapists who refer their clients to me

Tom Jackobs: 27:53

Oh.

Kathi Burns: 27:53

who are just like, your clients are not ready to move forward. But then they'll send it to me and I'll teach'em how to start letting go of things, and then they'll go back to therapy and they're able to work it through. Working on, in your, on your brain is scary. Just like you said, Tom, it's intimidating.

Tom Jackobs: 28:06

Yeah. Can be.

Kathi Burns: 28:08

But just to start on easy things that you don't have a lot of, a lot of sparks around.

Tom Jackobs: 28:13

Yeah. Maybe start with a desk. I have a pretty clean desk, so I won't show it, but yeah, that's on.

Kathi Burns: 28:20

Yeah. Start with any pile that's laying around. Any pile. Just get rid of the pile and that will free you up.

Tom Jackobs: 28:28

I'm looking at my cable drawer. Oh.

Kathi Burns: 28:31

Ah, indecision, procrastination, avoidance. You know what the cable drawer is? We're procrastinating. We have no idea. Oh, it's indecision. We have no idea if it's supposed to be hooking up something.

Tom Jackobs: 28:41

Hey, I might need that three and a half inch floppy drive that's sitting down there at some point. Somebody somewhere might,

Kathi Burns: 28:49

Give you a cd.

Tom Jackobs: 28:53

Awesome. Thank you again, Kathi, for spending your time and your, and sharing your wisdom with us. I really do appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Kathi Burns: 29:02

Absolutely. This has been fun. I love talking about this subject. Thanks, Tom.

Tom Jackobs: 29:07

Yeah. And to our dear listeners and viewers, thank you so much for tuning in for today's episode. Make sure you're checking out what Kathi's doing. We're gonna put all that down in the show notes, so just click away, chat with Kathi and get organized, get clear, add some space to your life. And if you could do me a little favor while you're down there clicking away in the show notes, there might be a little review button. So if you could give the show a rating and review, I'd certainly appreciate that. Just shares it, helps to share the show with those that need the advice. So until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2: 29:42

You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.