Speaker: 0:01

Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.

Tom Jackobs: 0:36

Welcome, welcome, welcome, marvelous listeners to another episode of the Heart-Led Business Show. Today we're rolling out the red carpet for a true publishing powerhouse, David Hancock, as the mastermind behind Morgan James Publishing and a bestselling author with over 20 acclaimed titles under his belt. David is reshaping the world of hybrid publishing, one heartfelt book at a time. So join us as we explore his journey of Heart-Led entrepreneurship and the magic that happens when passion meets purpose. So David, welcome to the show.

David Hancock: 1:10

Tom, man, I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate the opportunity to share, but meet your audience and again, just further get to know you. I have really enjoyed what you've been doing.

Tom Jackobs: 1:20

Oh, thank you so much for that. And I'm also equally excited for this conversation, primarily because when we were first introduced, and I think that was with Jason previous guest on the podcast, and we spoke, and I just love what you're doing with completely different approach to publishing than the traditional publishing. I think that is completely Heart-Led and I can't wait to share your business with the audience as well.

David Hancock: 1:45

It was very intentional.

Tom Jackobs: 1:47

Good. But first I always like to ask the first question, which is, what's your definition of a Heart-Led business?

David Hancock: 1:54

That's a great question and I appreciate just being a part of the listening into the podcast that you've done to kind of what to expect. For me it's very intentional. A Heart-Led business is one where profits follow purpose, not the other way around. And it means putting people before transactions and value before spreadsheets. I think a Heart-Led business builds trust in impact first, and then let's profits be the natural byproduct. And of course it's about leading with integrity and relationships so that our business leaves a legacy, not just a ledger.

Tom Jackobs: 2:29

Right, and hopefully those are connected in terms of legacy plus a nice little cash infusion as well.

David Hancock: 2:36

It is. The more you serve other more you'll serve yourself. That we learned that a long time ago.

Tom Jackobs: 2:41

Yeah. Yeah. That's that famous quote by Zig Ziglar, help enough people get what they want, you'll get what you want.

David Hancock: 2:46

He was one of my mentors back in the nineties. I started writing books back in the day.

Tom Jackobs: 2:51

That's right. And I think from that previous conversation that we had, that prompted me to download an audio book of his, like an original recording, redone with his son. The way that he speaks is such a cool kinda mad men style, like old 1950s, announcer voice.

David Hancock: 3:09

Yes, indeed.

Tom Jackobs: 3:10

Anyway, let's talk about you and, and your business. So tell us how you've upended the publishing world.

David Hancock: 3:15

I'll try to give the short version'cause it is a very good story. I was a banker back in the nineties, dumb and happy. Never imagined doing anything else. I found a great niche for a college dropout. I just, for whatever reason, God had a sense of humor to getting me where I was at. But I was doing well. And then when my bosses started to lean into me like, Hey, David, you're doing good. I'm like, thanks. He said, why don't you start hiring people to do what you're doing and we can build a team of you. And I'm like, I don't even know why I'm successful like, but okay, we'll try. So at that point I really started to step out and try to figure out, well, what was it that was making me successful? I knew it wasn't the a$100,000 a month in marketing and advertising that the bank was doing. I knew in my heart that's not where my business was coming from, but they were doing that long before I showed up. And who am I to rock? That apple cart. But I started to go out there and just venture and try to find out what was it that was making me successful or how could I hone in on it or what I really didn't know. I just knew I needed to do something to help, that new team he wanted me to hire to be successful.

Tom Jackobs: 4:09

Yeah.

David Hancock: 4:10

So that's when I started to study under Zig Ziglar, Tom Hopkins, Bill Backrack, Todd Duncan, John Maxwell, you name'em all the gurus from the day.

Tom Jackobs: 4:19

Yeah.

David Hancock: 4:19

It was all amazing. I read their books. I went to their seminars, I bought their courses, I implemented'cause if you don't implement, nothing happens.

Tom Jackobs: 4:25

Right.

David Hancock: 4:26

And sure enough, I fine tuned some processes. I hired a couple assistants, you know, I, I made a little bit more money. I went home from work a little bit earlier, but nothing was really, resonating with me. This is why I had been successful. I was just able to fine tune it, but it wasn't until I discovered a book and got introduced to a gentleman by the name of Jay Conrad Levison, and his book was Guerilla Marketing. And it's funny, I was looking for that kind of stuff, but for a reason I couldn't find it. It wasn't in the library when I went there maybe it was checked out, it wasn't at the Barnes Noble. Maybe they were sold out, and I didn't find it, but one day I came to work and somebody on my staff. left a copy of Guerilla Marketing on my desk

Tom Jackobs: 5:02

Oh wow.

David Hancock: 5:03

To this day, I'm still friends with all of'em. Nobody's ever confessed to being that one person to gimme that book. So I say it was divinely left. In fact, I still have a copy of it. I still have it. And I resonated with it. I realized I was a guerilla and didn't know it. I was leveraging my time, my energy and my imagination to generate, referrals and relationships. I was trying to help others realize their goals'cause I knew, even back then, the more I improve that process and help others realize their goals, hopefully in a stress-free process, it would always come back to me and it did. And that was all called Guerilla Marketing. So I immersed myself in Guerilla Marketing. And realized, this is pretty amazing, but in one of the books, Jay Levinson said, Hey, if you have questions, email me. And I'm like, I'm gonna email him, but he is not gonna respond. Who am I? And ended up responding. We became pen pals and then we became friends, and then I hired him as a mentor coach, and he ultimately got me to write my first book. But he continued to secure that whole philosophy of serving others, the whole philosophy of having relationships and building a family and building, ways for others to succeed around you, whether it was the clients we were serving or my staff I was trying to help, it was all about their success because, know, almost selfishly its true. The more that we as individuals can help others, we'll never have to worry about our success.

Tom Jackobs: 6:18

Yeah.

David Hancock: 6:18

After writing three books, two of them co-authored in the Guerilla Marketing Series with Jay, traditionally, I was really frustrated. For me, you know, a Heart-Led business is one that remembers people are at the center. But when I started Morgan James, I wanted authors to feel like partners, not products. That's exactly how I fell with my publishing house. The traditional model was transactional. Sign a deal, hand over your rights. Hope for the best. And my heart said there had to be something else. And so I even tried self-publishing and the same thing. There was lots of wonderful things about doing it on your own and going at it on your own, but it lacked credibility, distribution, and opportunity. So we flipped the model. We put authors first. We gave them ownership of the work and involvement in the process and built a community around their success. And that's what I think Heart-Led businesses look like. Leading with people, relationships, and impact. And then of course, as I alluded before, the revenue did in fact follow.

Tom Jackobs: 7:10

That's awesome. What a great way of taking just an opportunity and just growing with it. Something that just like fell into your lap. I mean, that, that is like true entrepreneurship in my opinion, anyway.

David Hancock: 7:22

If I had known how complicated publishing was, I probably would've never done it on purpose, but that's what we call entrepreneurial bliss.

Tom Jackobs: 7:30

That's awesome. Let's go in into a little bit more about the traditional publishing so that we can get a good contrast between how that works versus how you're putting the authors first and leading with heart.

David Hancock: 7:43

Yeah, absolutely. So good question. It's not necessarily that traditional publishing is bad, it just seemed to be not the right fit for we budding entrepreneurs. And I do think the late nineties, early two thousands was when we, entrepreneurs really started to lean into the power of the printed book. It certainly was one of the Guerilla Marketing weapons long before I discovered Guerilla Marketing. But it was probably, the mid nineties before we really started to take advantage of it. And we took publishing by storm. They didn't know how to handle us.'cause we, entrepreneurs don't always like giving up control. Not that we're control freaks, but we like to be able to do things with our content. We like to be able to create other products and services, and we just like to be involved and certainly like to have decisions made with us than for us. But that was the way that the traditional model was. You literally, you would sell them the rights. And I say sell loosely'cause the way it works is a publisher will dangle some sort of advance. You've all heard of that before, but an advance is exactly what it sounds like. It's an advance payment against future earnings. So it's a loan, so they're gonna loan you money into a certain point where you say, uncle, I'll give you all my rights to my manuscript. And then they go do with it as they please. And most publishers again, not this is a bad thing for everybody, but entrepreneurs it's a restriction, but most publishers just go do with it as they please. I had zero involvement in my first book.

Tom Jackobs: 8:56

Oh geez.

David Hancock: 8:56

They finalized a title without including me, the cover without including me. They even added three chapters to my book and I didn't know about it. So I got my sample copies in the mail and that may be a little bit extreme. They just thought something, I could have written it.

Tom Jackobs: 9:09

Yeah,

David Hancock: 9:10

But it just was, no, I had no relationship with them. And when as I started to do as I'd call'em up for to order books or ask questions, they're like, who are you again? Not that I'm anybody at this point, but I'm starting to do pretty well. And it was just very restrictive. I had to get my PowerPoint presentations approved every time I went out and had to speak on it. They wanted make sure I wasn't giving too much content away. I ended up having to pay retail price for my books'cause I was giving away a lot of books. And they said you bought as, as much as we're gonna allow you to buy it at a discount, so you gotta pay retail.

Tom Jackobs: 9:40

oh my gosh.

David Hancock: 9:41

It was just frustrating. Somehow all my royalties got paid at a lower rate because they were sold at nonstandard discounts'cause the typical publishing may say, Hey, we're gonna pay you 10, 12% or whatever, if it, sells here or there or the other. But there's a little tiny clause on page 33, they said, oh, by the way, if it sells at a nonstandard discount, we're gonna pay you 5% or less, or something like that. Imagine that most of my books got sold at a non-standard discount. How did that happen? The publishers in control of that, so that's how that happened. But after my third book, two of the last two were co-author with Jay. There's a fun side story there, but I went to Jay and just said, Hey, they want me to do another book and I don't like them. You're like, what else do I have to say? But I had moved to the wholesale side of banking so I could respend the book. My mentor was still becoming my best friend, and I'm like, I don't wanna do it, but, he said, we'll figure it out. And I said, not unless you co-author it with me. And he said yes. So after those books, I was outta my three book deal with the publisher. I sold 40,000 copies of my second book to the bank. Our workforce, we were doing really well.

Tom Jackobs: 10:38

Oh nice.

David Hancock: 10:39

So then I went self-published thinking, Hey, what do I need a publisher for? I went out there and self-published them, loved them. The covers were mine, the content was mine. I was very proud. There's pros and cons to everything. Very limited credibility with me saying, I'm wonderful, though I had a good track record with being a best signed author but I couldn't get media to interview me. I couldn't get in to bookstores'cause even today, most bookstores won't carry a self-published book. And the humbling thing was I filled up my garage with books, assuming I would be able to sell the number of books that I had sold before. But could not without the same level of distribution and the termites ate them up faster than I can sell them, which frustrated me, but also my bride'cause I had to push her car outta the garage to make room for'em.

Tom Jackobs: 11:18

Yeah, I bet she's not very happy.

David Hancock: 11:20

Yeah. I went back to Jay and said, man, there's got to be a better way. And uh, he was very loving, very gracious, and got me to put an outline together for what I thought didn't know this at the time, what a Heart-Led business could look like. What should a relationship between entrepreneur and publisher look like? And he alluded to me that he would take it to Houghton Mifflin. Now, Houghton Mifflin's an amazing old school publisher. They originally published Guerilla Marketing. They originally published Mark Twain and he had a great relationship with them. And he's maybe I'll take it to them and maybe they'll create an imprint to support entrepreneurs. So I pour my heart into this outline, layered it with Guerilla Marketing, a lot of values based selling, serving others to help realize your goals and just flexibility. Authors retain control of their ownership, make decisions. Just kind of pour it in there. And I present it to Jay, like, ta-da, take this. So now we'll have a place to publish. And he loved it. And laughed and any good mentor would do, he said, now go do it. I laughed and cried at the same time,

Tom Jackobs: 12:16

Oh, I bet.

David Hancock: 12:17

but I was obedient and decided to launch it named it after my kids, Morgan. Just had enough of God's favor and a lot of friends who gave us a little bit of help, and we just had to earn the rest.

Tom Jackobs: 12:28

Yeah. Well, certainly you have. How many books now are published under house?

David Hancock: 12:32

We probably have just under 6,000 titles in almost 24 years. We do 150 to 200 a year each one hand selected, but as you're probably not surprised, 80% of our decision is the author. Who are they? What are they doing and why? And do we think we can help them realize their goals? And in the book, certainly important. But you can't fix an author that just doesn't care about their audience. So our author is need to be Heart-Led as well. And that's what we're doing now.

Tom Jackobs: 13:02

Oh, that's beautiful. And you know what's interesting? I've self-published two books and co-authored like two other books. I don't have that experience of going to a publishing house, but I can imagine how frustrating that is to not be able to put up your own website to use some chapters as a lead magnet to be able to do all this stuff. So tell us a little bit more about transition'cause I always like to hear transformation stories from the banking, which is very much, can be very much profit led. And going from that environment to entrepreneurial your own thing and being a Heart-Led, what was the mindset shift that you had to go through personally to be successful in a new venture?

David Hancock: 13:43

Actually it was pretty easy. I was a mortgage banker. I was a loan officer. Then I run little loan officer shop. So for us it was still about serving others, helping others realize their goals, and adding value and building rapport and relationships and, leave an impact, and hopefully get your referrals. And as a loan officer, I was a 100% commissioned. Though I didn't have any entrepreneurial ventures prior to that, knew that if I didn't hustle, I wasn't gonna get paid. So I treated it as if it were my own business.

Tom Jackobs: 14:09

Yeah.

David Hancock: 14:09

And then just grew it from there. So when the transition came, it was an easy transition. But it was slow, I became very passionate about the power of the book. I literally doubled my income after the book coming out, and I didn't raise my fees, just nobody negotiated with me anymore. The power of the book gave me this authority for people to say, Hey, this guy knows what he's talking about. I, I can trust him. And of course, I demonstrated that trust by being consistent and adding value and creating valuable relationships. It started to overtake me with just how powerful the book was. So, as I grew in my mortgage banking career. I ended up getting promoted to the wholesale side, which means that my client was now the old me, the old loan officers or those mortgage brokerage shops that they would get money from me. So I spent all my time trying to help them grow their business the way that I grew my business. And one of my secret weapons is, oh gosh, you need to write a book. But I had really just started to lean just like Jay, and he said that I would be able to get clients that would never give me the time of day, have them start coming outta the woodwork, start doing business with me because it's the power of the book, the authority that the book gives. I was on television, radio, or print on a weekly basis because I was the only local knucklehead who wrote a book about the banking. And in 90's something was always happening in banking and it was crazy. So I started to teach that to my clients, you've gotta guerilla market your business, you've gotta serve, you've gotta help others, all the things we've talked about. But to really stand out, man, you need to do a book'cause that's what I did. They all had bought my books, so just trying to just teach them. And I got very, very sidetracked. I was probably working two-ish hours a day in my banking business, which was, I had co clients across the country, but my local part was, I was just taking my best friends to lunch every day,

Tom Jackobs: 15:44

yeah. Nice.

David Hancock: 15:44

Then I would spend 20 hours a day helping authors or helping entrepreneurial-minded people in the banking space to do what I did, write a book. So I'd compel them to write a book. I'd help them flesh out their ideas. I'd connect them with friends that I had made in the space, whether they're my agent or publishers, or helping some go out and self-publishing, which is absolutely better than doing, nothing at all. When I finally had those conversations with Jay about the publishing. World being broken. It was because all the people that I had helped and met that were doing traditional were having the same struggles that I had. All the people that I had met that doing the self-publishing side were doing really well. But they were having the same frustrations that most of the self-published authors had. Credibility distribution and opportunity and just when we were compelled to do it, we just said, Hey, let's do it. I didn't quit my day job right away. It was years later before I realized, I need to quit this day job'cause i'm having more fun over here. Now granted, I was getting paid still stupid money, which is hard to walk away from. But just the passion, the relationships I was building and the fun that we were having, creating something brand new from scratch. We didn't hire anybody from the publishing world or space for years after we started'cause I wanted to do it the right way. When I quit the day job as bankrupt went full on publisher and just continue to serve and it's just been so amazing.

Tom Jackobs: 16:55

That was a great answer. A lot of Heart-Led business owners struggle with making a profit and still being Heart-Led. How do you kinda balance those two for yourself and your business?

David Hancock: 17:06

Well, let me just confess there. It is a challenge sometimes when you need to close that next deal. But the real challenge is the more that you demonstrate that you need it, the less credibility, approachability, trustability that you have with your clients. So it is an exercise in patience, certainly is an exercise in faith. But don't ever pray for patience'cause God will give you reason to be patient. You just gotta lean into it. You just have to spend as much time as you can figuring out what your client needs, how you could help them realize their goals, how you can serve them, and the profit will come. You just have to trust and lean into it, and it will come back on you, and it will come back quicker than you think. If you just keep that mindset. Sometimes you may have to raise your fees, so the ones you're closing, but if you're adding value, you're serving others and you're trustworthy and you're getting referrals, you deserve it and it will be not unexpected. So it's a little blend of patience, persistence, and understanding that the lowest price isn't always best, especially for the value that you've got. So that's my short answer.

Tom Jackobs: 18:04

Yeah. Nice. And what kind of like pleasant surprises have come out of being Heart-Led that you never would've expected?

David Hancock: 18:11

I never would've expected that all of my best friends today or whatever, Morgan, James authors, I've always had great friends since kindergarten, now, I'm almost 25 years into this, I go back and I look at who am I spending the most time with? Where is my joy? Who do I travel to go see? Its authors who end up have becoming my best friends. That was definitely unexpected.

Tom Jackobs: 18:31

Nice. Yeah.

David Hancock: 18:32

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I, Jay demonstrated that with me and we became best friends.

Tom Jackobs: 18:37

Yeah.

David Hancock: 18:37

I met him in the mid nineties. He got me to write my book. We co-authored two books together and I didn't meet him in person until after I started the publishing house.

Tom Jackobs: 18:45

Oh wow.

David Hancock: 18:46

It was all via phone, no zoom, phone, and email was our entire relationship.

Tom Jackobs: 18:50

That's amazing. You talk about the distribution and the opportunity that comes from working with a publishing house. Why is that versus, self-publishing? What's the process, one versus the other?

David Hancock: 19:05

The distribution's pretty, pretty significant. Now, we all think

Tom Jackobs: 19:07

Amazon

David Hancock: 19:08

is amazing and huge, but they're not the end all. Especially for the last eight years or so, they've really come under fire. They're not the favorite choice to go to anymore. But people do like options. And for us it was always about discoverability, being discovered by somebody in Alaskan bookstore who never, ever went on the internet to find, or may have found you on the internet, who discovered you because they wandered the aisle in the bookstore when they were in need for some sort of content. So I love the distribution side of publishing because in open up our circle of influence to virtually unlimited. Certainly with social media, you can reach just about anybody on the planet, but those algorithms are limited and not everybody is on social media. Not everybody's looking for business on there. So finding that right CEO who picks it up at the airport bookstore, or just wanders into the bookstore has been significant. Fast forward to today. Amazon's our largest client, but they're a very small percentage compared to our overall. The bulk of our sales are coming from brick and mortar,

Tom Jackobs: 20:02

Really?

David Hancock: 20:03

Generally, they're either were referred to go buy the book from a friend or they discovered it. And one cool thing about having that brick and mortar distribution is Amazon pays the least, the and mortar stores pay the most. So, we ended making more money, by serving the client that's wandering down through, the bookstore aisle. But that kind of credibility is significant, especially with media. Their producers require that the people that they interview for media, whether it's a radio or television or print, generally they have to be vested or vetted, and they, they don't have time. So they let publishers do the vetting for them. And I learned that the hard way'cause I was getting picked up by media on a weekly basis, but when I started to self-publish, they just didn't have time to vet me in the content that I was talking about. And I couldn't get those interviews. They talk to me all day long about my traditionally published books, but not my other ones. And then that bookstore distribution, just not being able to get in the stores on the self-published side was very limiting'cause even back then, early days of Amazon, obviously when I started my books. But having the books in the brick and mortar stores was very powerful.

Tom Jackobs: 21:00

Oh yeah, but when I published my first book and one of the guys that, uh, was, we're kind of in a mastermind group that was working on this together, we're all doing our own books, and one, one person said, Hey, I have an idea. Let's reverse steal our books. And I was like, what does that mean? He's like, take your book into Barnes and Noble and buy it. So when they scan it, it tells the register, the inventory system that they're outta that book now and they're gonna order it. I was like, ah, that's not gonna work. That was a clever little concept though. But instead, just take a box of books and put it in the bookstore.

David Hancock: 21:33

But now when they scan it if not in their system, they'll just say, go ahead and take the book home. So a wife's tale, but a great way to get noticed. So I'm not saying don't do it but the other thing if you take a book to a bookstore and put it on their shelf, generally within 30 minutes they'll discover it and get rid of it.

Tom Jackobs: 21:48

Oh, okay.

David Hancock: 21:49

Until recently publishers paid for premium placements. So every time somebody drops a book in a bookstore, they may put it cover out, and that's something that you're used to really police. So if you two go, even if your book is in the store, you go in there and turn the book cover out, walk back, and just watch it within 30 minutes, they'll put it back, that's definitely a very cherished space. Under Barns new ownership, they don't allow publishers to buy that kind of placement. They let their local managers of curate their own promotions and we can't even buy them from the local stores, uh, or the local manager. But still they do watch themselves. So if a book shows up where it's not supposed to be, or if a book turns cover out like it's not supposed to be, they'll fix it.

Tom Jackobs: 22:25

That's interesting. It just, the more I learn about the whole publishing and thank you for sharing all that stuff, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I self-published that first part. Yeah. I love your model though, in terms of putting the author first and giving them all the resources to be successful without the restraints that traditional gives. So thank you for doing that. That's amazing.

David Hancock: 22:48

Absolutely. One of Jay and I's most famous books was called Guerilla Marketing for Writers, and it was just really to help the authors understand what no publisher's gonna teach them. Ultimately, no matter who publishes the book, whether it's some random house, or self publish, or even somebody like Morgan James, though we do more than most publishers, it really is gonna fall on the author's shoulders to get the books out. We know how to sell our widgets or create value in other ways. But selling books is a very specific thing, and what we've learned, it's really hard to sell a book. Nobody wants to buy another book. So you lean into the message. You lean in how it serves others. You lean into the relationships and give access and demonstrate authority. Then they trust you. Then they'll buy the book and talk about it. but we have to teach them, you know that it's on you. So you've got to do these things and there's over a hundred different ways to market and sell the book without wasting time or money. You just need to know about it. So it's a process.

Tom Jackobs: 23:34

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. And I'm sure your whole program kind of, streamlines that whole process, that learning process shortens the learning curve.

David Hancock: 23:41

Yeah. We start early on with our authors. Um, hopefully, again, the goal is to have a great relationship with them and serve them. But we start talking about, you know, the best time to start marketing your product book in this case is the moment you decide to create it. Now, notice I didn't say the best time to start selling your book is the moment you decide to create it. Because you've gotta demonstrate authority. You need to lean into it. People need to see you as the right person saying the right thing at the right time. And you need to earn the right to ultimately say, Hey, go pre-order my book.'cause pre-orders matter. And then you've earned it. They've expected it. They're like, when and where and how can I support you? And then you give them a path to and then they will.

Tom Jackobs: 24:15

Ah, that's great. Yeah. And I love processes too. That just speaks to my heart.

David Hancock: 24:21

Ah, awesome.

Tom Jackobs: 24:22

Yeah. Yeah. This has been just a great conversation David, and thank you so much for being on the show. But before we kinda sign off here, how can people learn more about you and Morgan James publishing?

David Hancock: 24:33

Well, I appreciate the opportunity. It certainly wasn't my goal for being on the show. I really wanted to serve you and to get to know you, but serve your audience in however I can. You can discover me@morganjamespublishing.com on all social medias at David Hancock. Happy to connect anything I can do to serve you, I'd be honored to. In fact I could probably give, if it's okay, I could give two gifts to your audience

Tom Jackobs: 24:53

Absolutely.

David Hancock: 24:53

Since we talked a whole bunch about books one our best-selling books is a book called Guerilla Marketing for Writers. Now I have a third edition coming out in March, but if you wanna get this one, just go to G as in guerilla g, marketing for writers.com, and you can download a free copy of this and I want you to use it and it and grow your author business without wasting time, without wasting money. And then in March, I've got the Babylon Blueprint for Authors, which is in essence the third edition of Guerilla Marketing because Jay has passed away years ago. So it was tough to do it under that brand. But the other gift is because you've extended so much generosity to me, to introduce me to your audience, and I'm so grateful I wanna give back. And one of my Wall Street Journal bestselling books is called Performance Driven Giving. Which is all about the power of generosity in your life to grow your business. And you can get a copy of this as well at your favorite bookstore. But go to Performance Driven Gift, my super secret website, performancedrivengift.com, and you can download it for free. You can put it in your Kindle, your Cobo, your Nook, or whatever device you have. No obligation to read it, but if you read it, tell all your friends. If you hate it, we never had this conversation.

Tom Jackobs: 25:57

Right. Exactly. Yeah. I always tell people, if you have a compliment, tell 10 of your friends if you have a complaint, tell me personally.

David Hancock: 26:07

Right, right.

Tom Jackobs: 26:08

Exactly. That's awesome. Well, David, again, thank you so much for spending your time with us and sharing your wisdom with the audience. I really appreciate you.

David Hancock: 26:18

It's my privilege. Thank you.

Tom Jackobs: 26:19

You are very welcome and thank you audience for tuning in today. We really appreciate you tuning in on YouTube or on Spotify or Apple, whichever you choose for your podcast. But make sure you're checking out what David's doing. We're gonna put all those links and all the books down in the, uh, show notes. So make sure you're checking that out. And while you're down there, uh, why don't you just give the show a rating and review. Help spread the word about the Heart-Led business show and helps more people realize that they can have a heart and lead with heart and still make a profit. So until next? Yeah. And until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2: 26:55

You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.