Speaker: 0:01

Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.

Tom Jackobs: 0:36

Well, welcome to the Heart-Led Business Show. Today we have the incredible Kyle McDowell, former Fortune 10 executive turned inspirational speaker and bestselling author. Kyle's mission to spark culture of excellent by igniting passion and purpose. It was truly his journey of transforming workplaces with his trademark principles, The 10 WE's, and how a heart-led approach can drive mega change. So buckle up as we get ready to feed that heartbeat and business wisdom from Kyle McDowell. Kyle, welcome to the show.

Kyle McDowell: 1:11

Wow, Tom, what an introduction. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here. I appreciate it.

Tom Jackobs: 1:16

Well, Kyle, I'm really excited to chat with you. I know when we first spoke, you shared The 10 WE's, uh, and I'm really, I shared that immediately with my team and they're like, yes, that we need to adopt all of these. And I gotta tell you my, my, my favorite three is

Kyle McDowell: 1:35

Hit me.

Tom Jackobs: 1:36

own your mistakes. I tell the team all the time, it's okay to make mistakes. That's how we learn. I'm not gonna yell at you the first time you make the mistake, but maybe the second time. But we're gonna learn.

Kyle McDowell: 1:47

There's a tagline that I always, I'm sorry to cut you off there, but I, I, you, you picked up on the spirit where that whole principle is intended to go.

Tom Jackobs: 1:55

Oh.

Kyle McDowell: 1:55

We own our mistakes, and I always add this tagline. We're not judged by our mistakes. We're judged by how quickly we remedy them and if we repeat them. So I love your take on that, brother. Yeah. We're gonna make mistakes. We're human. Yeah. What are the other two?

Tom Jackobs: 2:09

Pick each other up. That's so heart heartfelt. Then measure outcomes, not

Kyle McDowell: 2:15

activity.

Tom Jackobs: 2:16

So good.

Kyle McDowell: 2:18

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 2:18

I mean, all 10 are golden, but those were my, uh, three top. So I'm excited to kinda get your take on all this heart-led stuff.

Kyle McDowell: 2:26

I think we're meant to be together here today, so we've got a lot of common, I think, a lot of overlap in how we approach business and entrepreneurship. So I'm, I think it's gonna be a great conversation.

Tom Jackobs: 2:33

Absolutely. And of course I always like to ask, start with the first question, which is, what's your definition of a heart-led business?

Kyle McDowell: 2:42

Um, I would actually answer the question in an odd way to remove the word heart and insert the word human. So let's lead in a human centric way. So, and that's my answer is that a heart-led business is gonna be led by a human who knows that he or she worked with other humans, not means to an end, not cogs in a wheel, not just another number. There's a person with a personality and a family and a history and all the unique experiences and perspectives that they've lived throughout the, they, you're bringing that through the workplace. But part of what fuels me today and where I became kind of disenfranchised from the whole corporate world. The whole engine was watching and actually kind of perpetuating, you know, treating people like less than human. Uh, all in a means with a means to an end. It's, it was a shortsighted way of it is a shortsighted way of living and leading. So I'd say human centric.

Tom Jackobs: 3:33

That means to the end is more profit, right?

Kyle McDowell: 3:36

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 3:37

That was the old way, right?

Kyle McDowell: 3:38

I'm a career operator. So I was in the corporate world for, uh, nearly 30 years and I led really massive operations, tens of thousands of employees at, um, I worked for three Fortune 10 firms. And I'll tell you one of the things that was like completely so pervasive throughout each of every stop of my career was this focus on results with a void of focus on the people who actually deliver the results. And I was guilty of it as well, man. I was raised in the corporate world watching bosses bang their fist on a desk, raise a voice, you know, if you gotta sick kid, don't care, see you on Saturday. Those types of things. So I was a product of that and I, you know, I perpetuated that. But, um, when I realized the enormous impact and fulfillment that can be found when we kind of put aside the profit stuff, which I know is very important obviously, but also the tying it back to that to an operator, the operation stuff. So it's all KPI driven it, it's a metrics, a heavy world if you're an operator or ops leader. So when you talk about profit and having a heart-led business in spite of, or instead of focusing exclusively on the profit, I say the same about the operation results. When I started to shift my focus on the people, the results came so much easier versus just focus exclusively on the results and try to pull the people along. But if you start on the other direction and come forward, I think the results are so much, easily, much more easily attained, my experience.

Tom Jackobs: 5:07

Yeah, my mine as well is like holding somebody's hand and you're leading them along with you versus the pushing, which somebody's gonna push right back at you.

Kyle McDowell: 5:17

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 5:17

As well. It totally makes sense.

Kyle McDowell: 5:18

It's physics. Yeah,

Tom Jackobs: 5:20

Yeah. That's awesome. So tell us a little bit about The WE principles and how you came up with them.

Kyle McDowell: 5:26

Yeah, please. So I, um, yeah, as I mentioned I was a long time veteran of the corporate world, um, but it was probably around year 22 where, um, my level of apathy had reached such a point that I just felt like I couldn't continue doing what I was doing. And at that point I was leading, um, a team of maybe 5,000 people. And Tom, it's a real, it's a real kind of gut check to wake up and loath the environments that you were mainly responsible for creating. So that was a real kind of gut, you know, punch to my gut. It's like, dude, you created this environment. Like, if you don't like this culture that you're in, you've got no one to blame but yourself. And it put me in such a place where I was just like, I don't know that I want to be this guy any longer. My, um, I was on the doorstep of a divorce that ultimately happened. My health was not where it needed to be. I just wasn't a, I wasn't a happy guy. So at that point I was very fortunate I was able to say I stepped away. I was able to leave the corporate world for a minute. I knew I couldn't retire. I certainly wasn't in that position, but I felt as if I could take a month or two off and kind of get my head right before stepping back into the fray. Um, and then I was greeted with an opportunity that I really felt like it was the right fit within a couple of weeks of stepping away. And so I took this role, which required me to lead about 15,000 people. It's a$7 billion program. And, um. It was clear to me in the first month or two that there was some, I would say cultural challenges. I wouldn't say the group was downright dysfunctional, but there were pockets of dysfunction for sure. And with an organization that size, um, the likelihood of having pockets of excellence, but also having pockets of real toxicity and the two never even realizing it or recognizing that, hey, if one group within this group is not performing well, but the other one is we're not winning. Right? You might feel like you are'cause you're a little group over here'cause it's a group of 15,000 people. There's certainly some high performers but also pockets of opportunity, but about 60 days into the role, I, um, I requested to bring the top 40 or 50 leaders of this organization, um, to a central location. We had an office in Lawrence, Kansas, and, um, the night before I was gonna meet with these leaders. Um, I realized it was a gut check moment for me. It's like, okay, dude, you stepped away from the corporate world because you didn't like what you saw. You didn't like the leader. You'd become, you didn't like how you felt about what you were doing. You were lacking fulfillment. Alright? But now you've come back to this position. It's an even greater scope. What are you about? Are you gonna repeat the same recipe and get the same results? Or are you gonna do something a little bit more difficult and try to be the leader that you've always wanted to be, and more importantly, be the leader that you've never had. So, um, Tom, it was like midnight the night before, and, um, I was terrified, dude. I didn't know what I was gonna say. This imposter syndrome starts, creep, starts creeping in. I have no, I was really nervous. Um, but I created a PowerPoint that night was just a handful of pages and on the first page, and this came by the way, as a product of me kind of replaying scenarios throughout my 20 years at the time. That just left me feeling less than whole, less left me feeling like I wasn't adding value, like I wasn't valued. And then I juxtaposed that with some really great experiences with a few leaders that I was fortunate to work with throughout my career. And I ended up with these 10 sentences and they were essentially kind of the rules of the road. And they each started with the word we and I'm not super creative, so I have The 10 WE's. But the umbrella spirit of these things were like, and I said this very clearly to the team the next day. I said, these are the principles by which I expect you to hold me accountable. I expect you to hold me to these because I will hold you accountable to these same principles. Now, if you can't, if you can't subscribe to any one of these 10, I will help you find another role. And I mean that sincerely. I with no, no hard feelings. We have, we're a big company, lots of opportunities. I will help you, but this is who we're gonna be. And these principles. Um, by the way, I would say half the group was pretty optimistic. A quarter of the group was like, eh, we'll see. But there was a handful. There was a handful that just thought I was full of it. And, uh, I had some proving to do, had some trust to game. But, um, that was 2017, um, that night and that next day changed my life because the transformation that, um, unfolded at that organization was nothing short or profound from a business results perspective. It was really quantifiable, we could see all time highs in nearly every measurable. But what was more impactful to me and what ultimately compelled me to write the book and set me on the journey that I'm now is watching bosses turn into leaders, people that actually give a shit about the person to their right and left. So much so that I'm still, and more I still have, um, more regular contacts with members of that team who, with whom I haven't worked with since. Probably another five or six years ago that I have probably the previous 20 years combined. So that speaks to the value of those connections. And these were the guys that encouraged me to write the book, one of one of my direct reports, who's now one of my closest colleagues helped name the book. Um. So those principles changed my life, and that's been, it's been my mission ever since then is to get the word out and chatting with guys like you helps that mission. Of course, the book helps in that regard as well, but they've become the code of everything I do now, not just the professional world, but my personal life as well.

Tom Jackobs: 10:54

Yeah. No. And what a great story. I can only imagine your, what was going through your head and your gut that evening.

Kyle McDowell: 11:02

What do you think? What do you think was going through my head man, for real?

Tom Jackobs: 11:05

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 11:06

If you were in those shoes.

Tom Jackobs: 11:07

If I were in those shoes I would be like, probably in the toilet throwing up, uh, a little bit. But also I'd probably be staring at my laptop

Kyle McDowell: 11:17

I did. In powerpoint

Tom Jackobs: 11:17

and like trying to figure out, like crashing everything that I'd, uh, that I had planned and going, is this gonna work?

Kyle McDowell: 11:24

Sounds familiar.

Tom Jackobs: 11:26

Are they going to accept this? Are they gonna laugh at me? You know, all those

Kyle McDowell: 11:30

I got some of that.

Tom Jackobs: 11:31

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 11:32

I got some of that. Yep. I got some of that. I had a peer, um, a colleague who was managing, um, a portfolio quite a bit smaller, but still a good sized portfolio, call me corny to my face. Uh, and he said it as a term of endearment. Like he said it as if it was a compliment. Um, and he giggled as you said it. But, uh, and I did take it kind of as an insult, but then I was like, you know what? Call me corny all day, brother. If it's effective and we're making, and we're doing things that this team's not done before, and the impact that we're having for each other is exponentially greater than what it was then, okay, I'll roll corny all day.

Tom Jackobs: 12:06

Yeah, of course.

Kyle McDowell: 12:08

Why not?

Tom Jackobs: 12:09

When you went into that role. Was there already kind of writing on the wall in terms of there needs to be a dramatic shift in the organization and the culture.

Kyle McDowell: 12:21

Um, it was very obvious. Um, and there were two things that I thought, um, were screaming at me. Well, the first is the fellow that I replaced was dismissed. Um.

Tom Jackobs: 12:32

Okay.

Kyle McDowell: 12:33

I don't even know the specifics behind it, but, and it was obvious to me that the relationship he had with several members of really influential leaders on the team was not good. And I heard some, and once we got to know each other and worked with each other for a little while, I heard some horror stories. I quoted a couple in the book. But, um, that, and I could sense from my, my, my boss, I could sense from him that there was some fatigue. Um. And I remember at one point he even said, and he said it in some kind of crude way, but it was kind of funny, but essentially saying it was time to get some people out, make some hard changes. And I was like, well, what? Why now? Because I'm'cause a new guy's here like that, they didn't wake up yesterday and start being under performers. Like something had to have happened between, you know. More recently that someone else should have addressed, but okay. If you want me to take some cows out to pasture, which I think honestly was the expression he used with me.

Tom Jackobs: 13:31

Oh wow.

Kyle McDowell: 13:31

Um, so the way he, yeah, so, right, so, so I could tell by his level of, yeah, dude, it was, there was no, it was no, there was no ambiguity. He felt as if some folks had kind of their role or outstayed their role their effectiveness. But Anyway, yeah, so it was obvious between that fellow being dismissed before me. Some of the horror stories I started to hear. And then also I could just sense from my boss that he was looking for someone, I think he was smart in that he recognized there were opportunities to kind of change the dynamic of the organization. It was obvious he wasn't the guy to do it.

Tom Jackobs: 14:03

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 14:03

But he at least I think, was smart enough to recognize the need was there and he felt maybe I was the guy to do that. I didn't know I was the guy to do that until that night in Lawrence, Kansas.

Tom Jackobs: 14:13

Interesting. Now for their profitability challenges prior to that as well? Is that maybe what precipitated him bringing you in?

Kyle McDowell: 14:23

I would, no, I don't think there were profitability issues as much as there were, um, um, customer service issues and on, on a very macro basis. So this$7 billion program was really, is kind of the parent of two sub-programs. Um, that we delivered for the federal government. So it was 1-800-MEDICARE, um, telephonic enrollment and the Affordable Care Act. So two massive, uh, really important programs. And at the time, um, I don't think the client was really happy with our level of performance. So I think it was performance issue, probably coupled with, not great, uh, employee engagement scores. So it was an experience thing that was happening for both our customer, our biggest customer, and the employees inside the organization. Just didn't feel as if they were really adding the value that they could or should.

Tom Jackobs: 15:13

Well, and that would drive negative profitability as well. If that continues, if customer service keeps going down and employee engagement keeps going down, then they're not

Kyle McDowell: 15:22

You bet it does. You bet it does.

Tom Jackobs: 15:24

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 15:25

You bet it does. I didn't look at it exclusively from a profit perspective. I looked at it from a perspective of what opportunities with this massive client are we not capitalizing on, in other words, where can we go deeper on this relationship? So we've got this relationship in this agreement for this very finite i'll, albeit, you know, broad spectrum, but it's a finite set of tasks. Can we go bigger? And the way to get bigger or go bigger, I thought, and it turned out to be true, was strengthening that relationship. Right? Letting them know that we're, uh, we are not dysfunctional behind the curtains. We, we are a high functioning team who cares about each other?'cause I just believe so strongly that if you're dysfunctional behind the scenes, the client feels that.

Tom Jackobs: 16:07

Absolutely.

Kyle McDowell: 16:07

And if you are high functioning. You've got a group of people that don't just have the same badge. They actually feel as if they are part of a team. I think the client feels that as well.

Tom Jackobs: 16:16

Yeah. So what was the transformation like and how quickly did that happen.

Kyle McDowell: 16:21

It took a while. Uh, by the way, that, that is a very similar question that I get a lot now in my, in what I do today working with companies is how long does this type of transformation take? And they hate the answer and answer. I don't know.'cause I don't know how bad it is. I don't know how committed you are. I don't know if this is a check the box initiative. I don't know if you're genuinely looking to drive a big change, but from my, in my experience, that very first transformation after introducing the principles, I would say so the problem with that question for me was, man is I never be at first I didn't believe the transformation was genuine. There's always this, for me, there was always this, okay, there's a. There's some brown nosing of the new boss. There is, you know, we're trying to endear ourselves, so let's just tell him what he wants to hear. And then I would visit, so every month, uh, the senior leadership group and I, we would, we had 11 locations. We would bounce from one site to the next every single month and do town halls and focus groups and just really get to know and dive deep into those site specific problems. I'll never forget this, and I forget what city it was, but I'll never forget. We showed up one morning, my team and I, we come rolling in and you've seen this, right? The executives come rolling in and everybody's on their best behavior. They dressed differently that day, which is this whole thing that I just really loathed to be honest. Um, what I used to take pride in it and it was an ego thing, but now I'm like, no, I don't. You guys need to be you. But anyway, I would, we showed up at this one location and I saw signage on the walls. That I never commissioned, didn't know was out there. And then I, in that same location, I saw coffee cups. I was like, hang on a second, man. Th there's some momentum here. And it was finally sented for me, probably about nine or maybe even 12 months in when kinda my right hand person, uh, her name was Lori, a woman that I just so adore to this day. Who I have tremendous respect for as well. She was telling me how a 10 We story something at one of the, our locations, was a real obvious display of someone really embracing the principles. She's telling me this story and I kind of, I guess I kind of rolled my eyes or I didn't react the way that she was hoping I would react. And because my, it was my inner voice saying, yeah, there's some brown nosing going on here. You know, you guys are trying to appease the new boss. And she noticed it and she, like very abruptly said, would you just stop? She had the most serious look on her. Would you just stop? It's working. She kind of, I don't know, I think she grabbed me by the arm, or she just was very forceful in her response, and I'd never seen her kind of perk up like that. And that was the moment for me. I'm like, all right, there's a real, there's something happening here. And it actually kind of fueled me to even be more overt with my messaging, how conspicuous I am in embracing them. We started so many years ago wearing these bracelets, and I still wear one to this day, as a reminder of, you know, trying to live the way that I think I want to live and be perceived the way that I think I wanna be perceived. So, um, I think all in all now, and please, I don't want your audience to to feel misled. We didn't get a hundred percent. There weren't, it was not a hundred percent adoption. There was always some right. Okay. I just don't wanna make it sound like it, this fairytale.'cause there was a lot of skepticism and I could tell, you know, regardless of what I would see, there was a, there was some obstinate uh, folks that just felt like I was full of it.

Tom Jackobs: 19:36

Change is hard.

Kyle McDowell: 19:37

Yeah, man.

Tom Jackobs: 19:38

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 19:38

Yeah. Especially at work because we're so, we enter the workplace almost naturally a little less trust, uh, trusting and a little bit, maybe less trustworthy in some environments.

Tom Jackobs: 19:49

Yeah. So when you're going through this and leading with the heart, clearly, you know, as you said earlier, profitability wasn't necessarily kinda at the forefront, but obviously as you implemented the program, the profitability did increase. Still while being heart-led. What was that like? Was that a complete shift or what were you feeling like as you're seeing this and you're your proverbial baby kinda growing up and doing something great.

Kyle McDowell: 20:18

Two thoughts come to mind with that question. So, in this relationship, um, we had a base kind of fee schedule, but then two or three times a year we would, we were eligible for a fairly significant bonus based on our performance. And, we went on a run, um, two or three years worth of unprecedented achievement in terms of the per, so there's a pool of bonus, right? And usually get anywhere from like 70% of that pool to 90%, maybe a hundred percent if you're really lucky. But it's who knows, but it's always based on performance. And we went on a run that we received, percentages that we had never seen before and what that did, so there's obviously a lot of pride that comes with that. When the team sees, wow, we've not gotten this before, like, I'm new. So, but to them it's like, wow, we've not seen that level of bonus before. So which created this momentum, but like, we wanna do more, we wanna see more, we wanna achieve more, we want to get a higher percentage next round. So that was kind of self-fulfilling. But then the second, the second scenario or the second thing that comes to mind is, the difference that we started to see with, and it's harder to quantify, but it was the change from boss to leader where people really, they would recognize when someone else was struggling or another department was struggling, they'd throw their hand up and say, yeah, I'm gonna go spend some time in that group today. Or I'm gonna go, I'm gonna see what needs because they didn't seem like they had all their stuff together in the staff meeting this morning. So we started to see people really take more of a macro view of our success versus, you know, any one person being successful in this kind of, like, for someone to win someone else must lose paradigm. Really became a team oriented, uh, endeavor. And I think to this day there's probably an element of team within that group that's, that's very different and stronger than it probably ever would've been otherwise. And they still adopt, they still use these principles.

Tom Jackobs: 22:12

Yeah, no, that's interesting because you know, I've 12 years in corporate. Corporate, hell as well. And it was always like divisions, right? And it was very siloed and it would, what you're describing would never happen where one division would look at another and say, Hey, what can we do to help them? Usually it was like, they're the problem. They need to fix their stuff.

Kyle McDowell: 22:34

We'd be better if they were better, right?

Tom Jackobs: 22:36

Right. And you know, I bring back the profit quite a bit A lot of heart-led business owners and people that are working in companies that are heart-led as well, sometimes don't believe that they should have a profit. That there's, it's one or the other. You're either heart-led or you're building a profit. You can have both. And in fact, you can probably have a better profit if you're more heart-led.

Kyle McDowell: 23:01

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen. With greater impact.

Tom Jackobs: 23:04

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 23:05

Amen. And, but let me throw a challenge to you though. So I'm gonna guess you and I are, um, gosh, I hope this lands. Well, I'm gonna guess you and I are similar in age. Like born in the seventies. Fair?

Tom Jackobs: 23:18

70? Yes.

Kyle McDowell: 23:20

Okay. Good for you. You look great. You look fantastic. Um. Uh, what did you observe? What you're a product of, what leadership example? Like what compelled you to lead the way you led, especially earlier in your career? And the ultimate question where I'm going with this is if you would've if your if you would've talked to your 22-year-old, 25-year-old self,

Tom Jackobs: 23:46

Yep.

Kyle McDowell: 23:46

would you buy in to what you are kind of evangelizing today?

Tom Jackobs: 23:52

No.

Kyle McDowell: 23:53

I wouldn't either.

Tom Jackobs: 23:54

Not at all.

Kyle McDowell: 23:54

That's the challenge, brother. That's the challenge. How do we change that?

Tom Jackobs: 23:58

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 23:59

You with me? You know what I mean?

Tom Jackobs: 24:01

Absolutely. And I think it is changing'cause I don't see, and you know, it's been 20, 30 years since I've been in corporate. Um, but even the friends that are in corporate, there's still the politics, but there's, it's much more heart-led than it was like

Kyle McDowell: 24:18

Totally?

Tom Jackobs: 24:19

I mean I was In corporate. It was, you know, management by walking around was the big buzzword then, and zero defects and six sigma. And there were just buzzwords to me. I was just like, you know, I'm just here to make a paycheck. I wanna advance, I was advance advance, and I would get slapped down because I didn't have an engineering degree. To go into sales at a chemical company, they're like, oh no, Tom, you need a chemical engineering degree in order to, or an

Kyle McDowell: 24:46

MBA. To sell?

Tom Jackobs: 24:48

Like, you seen engineers at this company selling?

Kyle McDowell: 24:53

Or any company. That's a, that's kind of a tough combination of skills, right?

Tom Jackobs: 24:57

It is, and then it takes a really special person that is both

Kyle McDowell: 25:00

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 25:00

right and left brained and which just kind of doing all that and it just, it was so frustrating that there wasn't that support, there wasn't that open-mindedness. You know, eventually I, you know, I left corporate Americans started doing my own thing and I take those lessons of what I didn't like.

Kyle McDowell: 25:18

Right.

Tom Jackobs: 25:18

And I brought that to, you know, my different businesses that I've had over the years.

Kyle McDowell: 25:24

Some of the best, uh, learnings that I've, that I was fortunate enough to receive came from really crappy bosses.

Tom Jackobs: 25:31

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 25:32

You know, I'm with you. Well, I think that's the challenge is right is getting, and I do believe I'm with you. I think there is a bit of a shift. We're the shift massive, obviously massive shifts in the workplace but the approach that leaders are taking today, I think is shifting. And I think that's a, an evolution, that we're seeing. But I just know that there's still a fair amount of cynicism and even skepticism. From all age brackets in the workplace that, you know, you're just out for yourself. This is kind of a doggy dog killer, be killed environment. I gotta look out for me. And that's, boy, it's exhausting and it sure is. It is the, it is a not, it's not sustainable over long periods of time, which is what I learned.

Tom Jackobs: 26:12

Yep. Yeah. Even with my current team it probably took two years for them to know that I really meant it's okay to make a mistake.

Kyle McDowell: 26:22

Really.

Tom Jackobs: 26:23

And to just be open and honest with me and just like, Hey, if you got a problem, let me know. And now they are, they're like, Hey, Tom, I'm really struggling right now. Great. What do you need? What do you need from me

Kyle McDowell: 26:34

yeah. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 26:35

to, to help you.

Kyle McDowell: 26:36

My favorite question.

Tom Jackobs: 26:37

Yeah. What do you need.

Kyle McDowell: 26:37

Yep. Yep. Good for you. Well, I think what you just highlight though is we've all, we all bring our baggage, if you will, to the table. They didn't just, their lack of trust in you had nothing to do with you.

Tom Jackobs: 26:50

Of course not. Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 26:51

It's what we've all experienced, but you sure had to earn it. It sounds like two years was a time to earn it. Yeah, man. Good for you. That's a great story.

Tom Jackobs: 26:59

Well, and it, and well, thank you for that. And it, It's all about perseverance as well, and I think a lot of heart-led business owners that are listening to the show are maybe a little shortsighted and they want something right away. Does, you know? Yeah. Being profit driven, I think you can create that profit right away and you'll have that profit, but it's not, it's short-lived. Versus a heart-led business it take you a little bit longer to get the, get to the profitability that you want. last a lot longer and be much more fulfilling.

Kyle McDowell: 27:30

That's the key. Yes, sir. I'm with you on that. Right on.

Tom Jackobs: 27:34

So when you're going and working with companies, what is the common issue that they're hiring you for?

Kyle McDowell: 27:42

Well, there seems to be two schools or kind of two profiles. The first is the one I try to kind of sniff out and stay away from, and that is they've probably, have done an employee engagement or employee satisfaction survey recently, the scores weren't what they wanted to be, so let's create an initiative. Let's check a box and let's bring some bestselling author in and we're gonna, everything's gonna be better. Everything's better tomorrow. Um, and that, and then the other group is my favorite and obviously where I like to spend my time. And that's, we got some work to do. You know, by and large we're pretty good people here, but we've got we're not where we want to be and we know we can be better. That doesn't, and that's, and that is, uh, agnostic to industry. It's agnostic. I've mean, I've worked from with school districts to title insurance companies, to automotive manufacturers. A botanical garden are my favorite clients. And either of those profiles, they get out of it what they put into it. In other words, right? So if it's a check the box, then you know, I'll check in a month or two later, maybe six months later, and nothing's changed and I'm not surprised. Uh, and but those that are like, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna rope off three intense days to go deep into the principles of this book. We have a workbook that we sell that goes along with the book and. And we'll facilitate a multi-day session to walk people through the concepts the rationale for why they matter. What happens if you don't kind of embrace any one of these principles and success stories that come when you do, when you see that they're willing to kind of set aside the real business in which they engage every day to spend focused energy on. A transformation, or at least the beginnings of a transformation that get, that fuels me. And it's obvious that it's genuine on their side. It's there's an authentic desire. Those, but the traits or the characteristics that are usually so, so loud you can't avoid them is ego. And that's when there's a bit of territorial aspect to inside, inside the organization, but also it's them, not me. It's, you know, it's, if I could just get them to do this or if I could just get my folks to, to, if I just get, it's always something else for somebody else. And there's this real need for self-reflection and introspection. That is a lot of what I talk about. It's like, you gotta look in the mirror, man. Gotta look in the mirror and what, you know, they're talking about you at their dinner table. So, but you control what they say, whether you realize it or not. So what do you want them to say? Behave in the way that you would want them to say, and your examples being replicated. That's the goal.

Tom Jackobs: 30:17

Yeah. Wow. That little sentence that you just said I think is absolute gold that they're talking about you anyway. How do you want to be perceived.

Kyle McDowell: 30:25

It's up to you. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 30:27

Totally up to us. Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 30:29

I was having a talk with my wife last night, man. She's, uh, she's in a role now where it's clear, that those in a, you know, level of authority or position of authority, they care more about checking boxes and making sure that every single, like they, they ma they manage, they don't lead. And by management, by managing, I mean, it's all about very speci like, um, our policy says this, you will not deviate from this policy or even come close to deviating from that policy. Instead of saying, Hey, what's going on? Why is this happening? What can we do to, and it's a check the box thing. And it's very, as you know, very different paradigm managing versus leading. And it's super pervasive and, um and I share that because we were talking about it at dinner table last night, and the story, she, the story she tells, I'm like, it doesn't have to be this way.

Tom Jackobs: 31:20

Yeah.

Kyle McDowell: 31:21

But nobody's taking the time to actually, to ask themselves tough questions. Am I having the impact I want to have as a leader? Am I fulfilled in what I do? Am I, do I have some satisfaction? Like what's my leadership legacy gonna be? When people start to think in those terms and ask themselves those questions, they behave differently. And that's where I think some opportunity is we always have that opportunity. I still have it. I still try to ask myself those same questions.

Tom Jackobs: 31:47

You need to always check in and make sure you're progressing and asking those hard questions, uh, frequently or else you're just.

Kyle McDowell: 31:54

So true.

Tom Jackobs: 31:54

stagnant.

Kyle McDowell: 31:56

Mediocre.

Tom Jackobs: 31:57

Mediocre. Oh,

Kyle McDowell: 31:58

Yeah man.

Tom Jackobs: 31:59

hate hate that word.

Kyle McDowell: 31:59

What a four letter word mediocre.

Tom Jackobs: 32:01

I know, right?

Kyle McDowell: 32:02

Right.

Tom Jackobs: 32:02

Yeah. Well, Kyle, I can't believe the time has gone by as quickly as it has. Great conversation.

Kyle McDowell: 32:08

What a pleasure.

Tom Jackobs: 32:09

Great nuggets to share with others that are struggling with being heart-led and that there is light at the end of the tunnel, that you can be profitable and be heart-led same time So how people learn more about you and The 10 WE's?

Kyle McDowell: 32:24

Well, thank you for that. So my book is Begin With We 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence. It's a USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller.

Tom Jackobs: 32:34

Awesome.

Kyle McDowell: 32:35

My website is pretty simple, kylemcdowellinc.com, and I'm a, I'm on essentially all social media platforms with the same handle@kylemcdowellinc. Um, and I love using social media not as an opportunity for, you know, clout, likes, and. Those vanity metrics, I use it to engage and, um, every now and then, a lot more lately than maybe historically I get I get hit from a reader here and there asking, you know, what do you think about this situation? Or sometimes they say, you know what, Kyle, you're full of it. This is not something that's gonna live in my organization. It's not gonna work. You're naive. But I love engaging because it's, that's how change is made.

Tom Jackobs: 33:12

Exactly. And challenging too.

Kyle McDowell: 33:14

My favorite. We challenge each other.

Tom Jackobs: 33:16

That's right. Well, Kyle, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us. I really appreciate it and I know our listeners, uh, really appreciate it as well.

Kyle McDowell: 33:26

You're doing great work, Tom. Really important stuff and I'm happy to be a part of it, so thank you for having me.

Tom Jackobs: 33:31

You're welcome. And thank you listeners for tuning in for today's episode. We really do appreciate it and make sure you're checking out everything that Kyle is doing. We're gonna link all of that up into the show notes,'cause just right down below in the episode in the show notes, you can grab all that, click away and check it out. And definitely take those 10 WE's and bring them into your heart. Also, if you could do me a favor and share this episode with a friend or a family member that could use the advice that Kyle shared as well, that would be really helpful for building the show and helping more people be heart-led. And until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2: 34:08

You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.