Speaker 0:01

Welcome to the Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let's go. Let your heart guide your business journey.

Tom Jackobs 0:35

Today, we're diving into the entrepreneurial ocean with the

Meet Marc Mawhinney: Coaching Without Ads

Tom Jackobs 0:39

legendary Marc Mawhinney, an expert at helping coaches reel in clients without casting any ad nets from his enchanting natural born coaches podcast to the thriving coaching jungle Facebook group. Mark's Heart-led business wisdom is as bountiful as a fruit tree in full bloom. Let's swing into his story and uncover the secrets of nurturing a thriving coaching community without paid ads. Mark, welcome to the show.

Marc Mawhinney 1:09

Thanks, Tom, and I've never been called legendary or enchanting, so I'll take it.

Tom Jackobs 1:14

Well, let's live up to that expectation as well. You know, I'm so interested in. The natural born coaches kind of idea. And we're going to dive really deep into that today. but first what's your definition of

Defining a Heart-Led Business

Tom Jackobs 1:29

a heart-led business?

Marc Mawhinney 1:30

I was thinking about this after we first connected and full disclosure for me, I'm not like a woo woo guy, not a super yeah. So there's some people in my world, like heart-led business, they give you probably more of that standard type answer. Like Terry Levine, she's great. She's a past JV partner of mine, all her stuff. She's got the heart you know with the hands and everything. If I was doing that, people would say. What's Mark on? You know, what the heck is he doing? So, so I view it a little bit different where I'm a little bit more meat and potatoes than, than maybe a mushy, but the way I view it and I've always thought of with heart-led is as simple as treating people the way you want to be treated, you know? So when it comes to the coaching world, of course, it's full of people making these enormous promises and, you know, they're promised a million bucks in a month and all, you're not going to have to work hard or they're doing certain things, which I've heard this story so many times when people have been on a call with a closer or someone from that person, another person's team, and that they're just so anxious to get the sale before that call is done. And they're trying to get them to max out their credit card. And I remember one past client before she. Join my program was telling me one of those horror stories and the person on the team said, Oh, she said, Oh, I have to talk it over with my husband. This is a big purchase. It was like tens of thousands of dollars. And, you know, we have to discuss these things. And he said, Oh no, just put it on your card. Keep it a secret from him. Then in 30 days, you'll have a whole pile of money. You can pay off the card. You got a bunch left over and he'll be thanking you at that. When I think of heart centered, it's the opposite of that type of manipulation.

Tom Jackobs 3:09

Yeah, absolutely. And I like that, that, you know, bringing the golden rule in, you know, know, help do unto others as you would have them do.

Marc Mawhinney 3:17

Crazy concept, but we, well, with the online space, but we have to remember, it sounds funny to say this, it's people who are on the other side of the screen. I think that we're used to seeing social media you know profiles or whatever, with a little tiny picture. And we tend to not, it's easy to forget that, Hey, it's a human being on the other side too. So put yourself in their shoes. It's, that should be, I think, 101 for anyone.

Tom Jackobs 3:42

Yeah, you know, I think you've really nailed it there that we've lost that human connection a lot online especially for those, you know keyboard warriors that love to, you know, be behind the Anonymity and make those comments on somebody's YouTube channel. Maybe it was mine And it's it's it's wild.

Marc Mawhinney 4:03

If they're face to face with you, they would never say that. And the fingers crossed. I hope that there's a, the tides turning and we'll see some different ways for people behaving. But back in the old days, I say the old days, early 2000s, even if someone was saying bad stuff about you, you wouldn't hear about it because of, you know, being the behind closed doors or Tom, who's a couple thousand miles away from me or something, I would know, or you wouldn't be, not that you'd do this, I mean, Tom's a bad example, we'll say Mike's across the world you know, he wouldn't be able to troll Mark in Canada, you know, or whatever, now it's so easy, if you've got internet access, ten seconds, and what do they say, hurt people hurt people.

Tom Jackobs 4:45

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And now when I see those comments on my, on my channel, I just kind of ignore them, bless and release them as it were. So tell us a little bit about your business and why you consider it heart-led.

Marc Mawhinney 5:01

So my whole business, I've been doing it since 2014.

Marc's Journey: From Real Estate to Coaching

Marc Mawhinney 5:05

So I'm coming up on 11 years, which I can't believe it. Sometimes, sometimes it feels like three years. Other times it feels like 30, but it's 11. And my whole business is helping coaches grow their businesses. That's who I help. Anyone else who comes to my world, if they sell widgets or they do some other type business, they need help. I refer them off. I stay in my lane, so to speak. I think the name of my business ties in the theme of your show probably in a way with natural born coaches. A lot of the people who gravitate into my world feel like they were born to do this. They were the ones that in high school, other kids were, you know, coming to them for support and they were great listeners and born leaders as well. And that's how it, it's funny how it worked out when I was coming up for a title for business, a podcast, everything else, I wanted something that really quickly, it's funny how it happened, but I wanted something with the word, the keyword in there, coach, coaches, coaching, you know, whatever. And I went through the billboard top 100 songs from 20, this was 2014. So I went back to 1990, like, you know, whatever, 25 years. And I was inserting the keywords into a bunch of songs and band names that's, you know, cause I was at a loss. I couldn't come up with them. The name any other way. Nothing worked there. I did have newcoachesontheblock.com at one time. I'm embarrassed to admit it's available now if you want to grab it, Tom.

Tom Jackobs 6:33

I love that. I might.

Marc Mawhinney 6:35

Yeah, so no luck on the music scene. Then went to the movies and went through the top movies every year. 2014, 2013, 2012. And I got down to whatever 1995 Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers inserted couches in there. I thought, Oh, geez, that's just really clicked. And then I had the any entrepreneur knows this is the most nerve wracking 10 or 20 seconds you rush to GoDaddy or whichever place you go to get your websites from your house and you punch it in and you just pray that it's not taken and it wasn't taken. And here, here we are today, but that's how the name came about.

Tom Jackobs 7:09

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. You know, back in the day, we used to like, just look at the LLC register or the corporation register to see if that name was taken. Now you have to go to the web and it's funny how things evolve and change over time.

Marc Mawhinney 7:23

Well, my past life's in real estate. So for about a decade through my twenties, I sold real estate and have my own company and stuff. And I was telling someone today because she's taking her real estate license and that came up in conversation. And I said, Oh, I took mine back in 2000 and I made the joke. I said, we used stone tablets and we were carving into them. I said then we had a team of dinosaurs haul the tablets to the real estate board to mark them or whatever But it does feel like a different time because back then my first year in real estate I had a pager that went on my belt and i'd be driving around the city I always had to have a whole cup full of hold, quarters because if I got a page from a client i'd have to go to a convenience store to use a payphone if any Younger people are watching. So like, what's a payphone? And it sounds so antiquated. Now I ended up getting a cell phone, I think in 2001 or whatever, you know, shortly after, but I tell my son this all the time. I had to carry a whole bunch of quarters in case I had to call a client back then.

Tom Jackobs 8:23

They're used by thinking, well, you got to do laundry or something.

Marc Mawhinney 8:26

Yeah, he, he has no clue. He's 16 now and he has no clue. I've become the person I said I'd never be, you know, like I used to walk uphill both ways to school, barefoot in the snow and all that. I'm the crusty old guy now.

Tom Jackobs 8:42

I think I'm, I am too. Some days are better than others, tell me how did you then get into the coaching business? What was that translation transition like for you?

Marc Mawhinney 8:55

So I mentioned my past life was in real estate. I ended up building up a good size company. Everything was going great until it wasn't going great. It collapsed and not that there's ever a good business closure, but it was a messy business closure because it wasn't a case that I was 65 or 70 and had been planning for it to close and whatever was bang, hit a brick wall at a hundred miles an hour. And so I spent a rough couple of years. I say in the wilderness, not literally, but figuratively because throughout my twenties It was hockey stick growth. I'm Canadian. So I'll use a hockey stick metaphor, but, but I never failed it. It was just everything worked. I now work my butt off, but it was just grow, grow, grow with real estate. And suddenly when you go through a business closure and all this stuff, and especially when you've tied your identity into your business, which I've learned, there's a tip I'll give people is keep the two separate. You're not your business. If your business fails, That's not you, you know but anyways, yeah. So I was a couple of years of just, you know, lost and did not want to go back into real estate, but I also am incapable of working a nine to five office job. I'd go crazy and I'm like, what the heck am I going to do? And so I ended up working with a few coaches and I didn't know much about coaching before this, by the way. And cause it was pretty new back then. You know, we're talking, it was around, I know since the nineties, but for the most part, it wasn't. You know, like it is today. And it just, I thought, wow, I've seen how this is helping me work with coaches. I thought this would be a great business to be in, you know, work from anywhere you work from your laptop or whatever. And that's what got me thinking about it. I jumped in and. Here we are.

Tom Jackobs 10:38

Oh, that's, that's very cool. That's interesting that, that you didn't coach before. So what, what is it that you're, you're providing to your, your clients that's unique and different?

Marc Mawhinney 10:50

Well, it's funny. I was coaching for years without realizing it with my real estate team because I was coaching my agents, you know, cause I had sold a lot of houses, learn a lot. And I was coaching them, but I never thought of it as coaching. Something that I thought was really interesting was a person came into my real estate office, probably 06, 07. And my assistant said, Mark, there's someone here to see you. And he had seen my signs around and ads and everything. And he was a business coach which back then, like what the heck's a business coach? Do people hire coaches? And he was trying to get my business and me being in my twenties and, you know, just cocky, full of piss and vinegar got, you know, heard him out for a couple of minutes or whatever, but then sent him on his way. And when the business closed, I thought, wow, I probably should have listened to a little more, you know, but anyways, that's, you know, life's easier when you look in the rear view mirror of Monday morning quarterback. To answer your question, what do I do different with my business or so? What I like to think is that I'm giving the coach I work with everything they need to build a successful business, but I'm not making that promise of you're going to have a seven figure business in the next 30 days working five minutes a day. So I've been an optimist, but I'm also a realistic optimist. Sometimes it's not great in the online space because you're competing with these people that are making outlandish BS claims. And so then you're going out there. Like I had a client once who we were working together and she was able to transition from her, she was had a nine- to- five job and doing her coaching on the side, and after six months, she was able to quit her job and start coaching full time, and I congratulate her. And she's like, I just, I don't know why it took so long or whatever. And I'm like, look for, if you're. You know, look in the real world here, not the internet marketer, you know, big you said to most people, how would you like to transition from your job into a coaching business that you love in six months, they'd be like, sign me up. But somehow we think it's a bad thing because we're so jaded by the, or you know, the hopium that's being sold out there in the online space.

Tom Jackobs 12:56

I love that term. I've not heard that before. Hopium

Marc Mawhinney 12:58

I didn't come up with it. So it's and I love that. And I also love douchepreneur, which I have not come up with, but there's lots, lots of douchepreneurs in the online space as well.

Tom Jackobs 13:09

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And the whole advice, you know, like burn the boats and go all in and you just hustle, hustle, hustle, and we'll make it happen. I think is complete BS is, is really doing people a great disservice.

Marc Mawhinney 13:24

It is.

Tom Jackobs 13:24

the six months gives her enough time to plan and create and, and just be ready if things go south a little bit, you know, but. Yeah.

Marc Mawhinney 13:35

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs 13:36

It has been disastrous. I'm sure.

Marc Mawhinney 13:38

I get the concept of burn the boats and, and, you know, I know what the whole thing means, but if you quit your job today, Then all of a sudden you're like, Oh man, I'm going to need a coaching client in the next week, or I'm not going to eat, you know, or I got to pay a car payment, got to put a roof over my head or so on, and that's going to lead to bad choices because for example, you have a potential client who's a walking red flag. That's going to be a pain in the butt to work with, that you should not be working with. It's like, Oh, I need to bring something in. So I Cruise's character Quits and he's like, who's with me? Who's with me to the whole office? And the only one that would go with him was Rene Zellweger. Remember he takes the fish. He's like, I bought this. This is my goldfish or whatever. You don't want to do the big Jerry Maguire scene, like a dramatic, tell your boss to go F himself or herself. And then all of a sudden you're stuck. You know when I built my coaching business, when I started it, I had a sales. We're was basically working from home for a telecommunications company here in Canada. There's two of us in our, in the province. Great gig. It was a couple of hours a day to get the work done or whatever. And then I would work on my coaching, but I wanted to wait until the coaching got rolling before I said to. I'm all done. And it was about 11 months. I think that I ended up switch over full time to coaching, but it would have been much different story if I quit after a week or two, it would have been pretty stressful.

Tom Jackobs 15:05

Oh, totally. I did the same thing when I transitioned from corporate into fitness, I took a year to do all the planning and kind of create a business and, and it all ramped up. But know, it's, it's, I remember- I think it was Tony Robbins during one of his seminars. He said, people overestimate what they can do in a year and drastically underestimate what they can do in 10.

Marc Mawhinney 15:29

Yeah. Love it.

Tom Jackobs 15:29

that's, yeah. And I think that's a, it's a nice reminder that one, take your time to do it. And do it right ,and do what feels good for you. And you're not going to get in those situations where you have that walking red flag client. I certainly have been there. And, and cause that really does just drain, drain, drain, it's cost more than if you hadn't taken the client in the first place.

Marc Mawhinney 15:53

Yeah. And if you're rolling out of bed in the morning and you look at your calendar and it's, Oh, geez, I got a call with Mary at two o'clock, and you just do not get along with her and you get that pit in your stomach. That's not good. There's actually a great book I'm reading. I'll recommend for your people. It's speaking of time and concept of time and everything. Have you heard of 4, 000 weeks? I think it's Oliver. Is it Berkman? It's Oliver something. Anyways, it's called 4, 000 weeks because that's what most people live. If you multiply 52 weeks a year times, you know what you're living. And I, I can't, I won't spoil it or, you know, steal the thunder, but it's an excellent book around the concept of time and his whole argument is basically, There's these productivity nerds, cause he used to be one that are all about getting more and more done and we'll get to work earlier and cross all stuff off the to do list. But never going to get ahead cause they're just going to pour more stuff in there. And that book's about deciding what's important and then getting the important stuff done, but being comfortable with letting the other stuff go.

Tom Jackobs 16:55

Oh, that's great. We'll link all that up into the show notes as well. We'll get the author, and all that good stuff. Yeah, that's, that's great. Cause I know a lot of people just really struggle with that. Now, with the Heartled business people, and I'm sure a lot of the coaches that you work with are Heartled businesses. What type of advice do you give them around the business side of coaching? No, from just personal experience. And also a lot of people that I speak to, a lot of heartled people struggle with that business side. So how do you, how do you help them with that?

Marc Mawhinney 17:31

I started in 2014, and I didn't realize how, messed up a lot of coaches are

The Importance of Money Mindset in Coaching

Marc Mawhinney 17:38

heart-led to around money until 2015, I was doing an online summit, and it was all around charging more for your coaching. And I called it the Command Higher Coaching Fees Summit. I got some interesting messages from a few people, and comments like this is awful. Coaching is about money. And like, I was like, I don't know, cross between Gordon Gecko and JR Ewing. I don't know who else. And I was like, wow, this is really weird. I thought everyone would be on board about this. I do see a lot of coaches have messed up opinions around money, you know, where they feel guilty somehow if they're making money, they're doing something wrong. They're taking it from someone else. And it's something to get around. Cause if you have those feelings, you may not even realize you have them. They could be buried deep down below, but that's going to affect your results. So I it's interesting, where I host a podcast as well. I was speaking to a guest once, and this goes back to money beliefs. Guess was doing a hundred K plus launches doing like really, really well. And what she realized whenever she went into a store to shop, she would gravitate towards the discount rack because she grew up poor, and earlier in her life, and she was just always used to doing that, and she never realized Just hit her one day. Oh my God. I just always go to that discount rack Another coach I know was always keeping her thermostat really down because she her power had been cut off You know when she was younger and stuff and she always kind of struggled and she'd be the type She'd be put on three pairs of socks a couple sweaters instead of turning the heat up and that's why so Yes coaches that definitely need to fix the money stuff that's bouncing around in their noggin

Tom Jackobs 19:23

Yeah. Yeah. And, and do you find that they're struggling with the balance between being heartled and The business side and, and being okay with accepting money. Like what, what is that kind of thought process going through besides, you know, the, you know, the, the struggle with, you know having that, that whole money mindset and abundance mindset.

Marc Mawhinney 19:45

I think a lot of it comes from society and the messages that they're being fed every day. So look at Hollywood, for example, more often than not, the main villain in a movie is usually a capitalist, right? It's a greedy capitalist. It's so the, the kids have their baseball field in small town, USA, and the greedy capitalist wants to steal it from them to put a toxic waste They're either whatever. So they see it, not just there. Like I see it in politics too. You're seeing, you know, on Twitter and different places, eat the rich hashtag, eat the rich. And it's just the richer evil and all this other stuff. And of course, there's bad, rich people. There's bad, poor people as well. But they've taken a lot of that in, I believe, and they don't want to be in the same camp as the greedy capitalist who's stealing the kids baseball field and polluting the town or something. And they feel that way. I'll also say that it's the people who often the people who claim to not care about money, who are like the greediest, most hypocritical people. So you've probably seen in the online space where, Oh no, put your wallets away. Like, you know, I don't care about my, it makes it sound like they almost don't want to you know, make money. They're trying to push away, but in reality, they're like the greediest SOBs out there, you know, so I'm not, I shouldn't say it. I'm a little bit jaded being in the online space so long, but I just I take the approach. My rule of thumb online is everyone's full of it until they've proven me wrong, you know, proven me otherwise. And yeah,

Tom Jackobs 21:16

And, and has that voted well for you?

Marc Mawhinney 21:19

I think so. The challenge building a business online, and you know, this is it's very, it would be very easy to spend multiple six figures on this ninja, You know solution, this magic bullet or whatever. And I actually know people who've spent over a hundred K without getting clients before, and I feel that awful for them because of it, which you think, how can you spend that kind of money? Well, 15 K for this copywriter or this much for a funnel expert and Facebook ads here or whatever. And I don't recommend doing that. One of the advantages for when I started my business, Is I started, I say not on a shoestring budget. It was on a dental floss budget. And at first I thought that was a negative because the reason my real estate business grew so much as I was always dumping more and more money into marketing, you know, again, this was the stone age, but I was sending out thousands of thousands of postcards every month to my local market, radio ads all this other stuff with print. And I was frustrated when I started coaching because, like, I don't have that war chest to put into. Facebook ads or whatever. And looking back now, I realized it was actually a positive because it forced me to roll up my sleeves. I couldn't just hire people to write, copy, and do all this other stuff. I had to do it myself. And actually fun fact that's happening today. I had to calculate it, but today's my 30 3, 200th. So 3, 200 straight day of emailing my list daily. Cause I started that practice in. But that, that build a lot of discipline that consistently posting content, the podcast is up to almost a thousand episodes. I don't think I would have been able to do that if I was just trying to buy my way through everything in the early stages.

Tom Jackobs 23:03

Yeah, exactly. Oh, that that's great. And I think that bodes well for a lot of the heartled business folks as well, that they're. They might be scared and correct me if I'm wrong but, but a little scared about putting their name out there, putting a lot of marketing out. In case that many people might come into their orbit and then sign up for their program. And then they're making all this money. And then it's, it's kind of, they're, they have that mindset that if I have the money, that's not good because evil people have money, but I don't have money now. So how do I get money? And that whole dichotomy, it just, it, it's takes so much energy in the brain. Cause I used to be there, and it's not a good place to be.

Marc Mawhinney 23:51

Well, you mentioned something earlier about YouTube comments. So what they're seeing is Oh, geez, Tom got troll comments here on this. Cause he's, you know, I do a lot of people and in the back of their mind, they're holding back because they're thinking if I get to be successful and out there and stuff that I'm going to be attacked by strangers. In their mom's basement, eating a bag of Doritos or Cheetos, you know, keyboard warriors. So you, you have to get around that. Like that was one advantage of the business closure was I was called every name in the book from people I didn't even know. And I, yeah, local media running me down and everything. Not saying it wasn't all deserved, by the way, I would change some things for sure. But the advantage for that was it gave me a bit of a thicker skin because, well, I've been called every name out there. So if some stranger halfway across the world calls me something, you know, I'm not going to lose sleep.

Tom Jackobs 24:46

Yeah. Yeah. So when, when you're working with a coach that has a really bad money mindset and is having difficulty

Balancing Heart-Led Values with Business Success

Tom Jackobs 24:55

kind of reconciling the business side with being heart-led, what, what do you tell them to, or to help them change that mindset?

Marc Mawhinney 25:04

I find the best solution for it is for them to make money because then they realize, see, this isn't that bad. Same thing where. Sometimes there's friction. Often there's friction between spouses. If one wants to become a coach, the other one who's working nine to five and just sees money going out and not much money coming in, that's going to cause some issues around the dinner table. And I always say the best solution to. Pacify or please a spouse is start making money because when you're starting to bring in a, you know, being compensated well for what you do, then that's going to definitely make things easier. I also think so getting paid is one way to get around those money issues. But also when you start, you, you, you. Sit back and realize that you're not going to do any good if you're poor. You know, I always say you can't coach on an empty stomach. So if you're trying to coach and you've got bill collectors calling and you've got, you know, the bills bouncing and everything else, that's kind of hard to focus on your client, do the best job for them. When your bank account is full, you're feeling peaceful, relaxed. You're going to be a much better coach as well. Yeah, that totally true. I know in my, my fitness business, when the times I was really struggling, I was just a terrible coach and trainer because I was just thinking like, Oh, is that landlord going to put locks on the door of this today? As my car is still out there to get hauled away. Yeah, life of an entrepreneur. I think we've all been there.

Tom Jackobs 26:34

Yeah, exactly. All those, it's a rollercoaster, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Of

Marc Mawhinney 26:40

No, there's a oh boys, Ryan Doris, I believe it is. Steven Kotler's partner. They do stuff together. I was watching a YouTube video where he says that entrepreneurs need a certain amount of VUCA. I think it is volatility, uncertainty. Complexity and ambiguity, but you only have so, so much VUCA to go around between. To you have to, if you think of it as a cops to fill your personal life and then your business. So if your personal life has a ton of VUCA, you're dating a crazy person. That's like setting your clothes on fire and kicking you out of the house and all that other stuff. You need LA like if you're at an 80. VUCA for your personal life, then you only want to be in a 20 with your business. You don't want to be too much of a roller coaster because you're going to go crazy. On the flip side, if in your personal life, whether it be your partner, or maybe you're just a hermit, you're not doing much, not getting much excitement, you then have more room to have VUCA in your business side of things too. So I thought that was kind of an interesting concept.

Tom Jackobs 27:44

Oh, that's, that, that is a great concept. I like that.

Marc Mawhinney 27:47

Hopefully you're 50 50. I'll send you the link later if you want to include it on show notes or if you want to check it out. I'm pretty sure I can find that video for you. He explains it much better than I, but I thought, wow, that's a really cool concept.

Tom Jackobs 27:59

Yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely link that up into the show notes that that's, yeah, I think that'll help a lot of people just kind of get that understanding of, of. The balance that needs to be made between the personal life, and the business life.

Marc Mawhinney 28:13

Will do.

Tom Jackobs 28:15

Cool. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being on the show today and sharing your wisdom and especially the balance between the business and the, and the heart-led piece of it. How can people learn more about your coaching services

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Tom Jackobs 28:29

and what you do?

Marc Mawhinney 28:30

Best spot is natural born coaches.com. That's a central hub. Also have a Facebook group. There's 27,000 ish coaches in there, so it's the Coaching Jungle. You can get there at thecoachingjungle.com.

Tom Jackobs 28:43

All right, cool. We'll link all that up into the show notes as well. And Mark, thank you again so much for being on the show today. I really do appreciate your time.

Marc Mawhinney 28:52

Thank you for the invite.

Tom Jackobs 28:52

No worries. And to our show listeners, thank you for listening to the show today. I really do appreciate it or watching the show if you're on YouTube, but let's make sure that you are checking out everything that Mark's doing. And we're going to provide that all down in the show notes. So just click on that little show notes link and get all of that information. And if you could do me a solid favor and do what other smart and considerate listeners are doing, and that's giving us a rating and a review, so that you can, we can share the show with more people and make sure that they get the idea that business can be heart-led and you can make money doing it at the same time. So until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2 29:34

You've been listening to the Heart Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.