Speaker: 0:01

Welcome to the Heart Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love. Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second. From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism. So buckle up and let's go. Let your heart guide your business journey.

Tom Jackobs: 0:36

Hold on to your hats, folks. Today, we're tickled to talk to the terrific, top tier, tender hearted tutor of treatments Dr. Tom Ingegno. He's not just a charismatic clinician, he's the crowned king of cupping, cleverly combining comedy with wellness wisdom. So tune in, tune up, and thrill your senses as we delve into the divine doings of his heart led business here on the Heart Led Business Show. Tom, welcome to the show.

Tom Ingegno: 1:06

Wow, that alliteration, man. Thank you so much for having me. I've never had an intro like that. That's amazing.

Tom Jackobs: 1:12

No problem. Happy to have you. And those T's just get tongue tied a bit.

Tom Ingegno: 1:18

Twist it up, huh?

Tom Jackobs: 1:19

Yes. And then I spit into my microphone. So the first question that I love to ask everybody is what is your definition of a heart led business?

Tom Ingegno: 1:31

I think a heart led business is anything that has a bigger picture than just a bottom line, right? It's something that helps you get up in the morning. It's something that motivates you to do better and better. And one that's really of service to others, right? So that can be anything, right? It could be healthcare. It could be, even selling a product. I know that sounds like cliche, but the idea of like, if I'm doing something to actually improve somebody's life. And I really care about that. That's a heart led business.

Tom Jackobs: 1:58

Awesome. That's sweet. That's a really good unique definition. I appreciate that. Thank you. So what inspired you to start your heart led business?

Tom Ingegno: 2:08

I think and every time I tell this story I have like another little connection to something that happened when I was younger, but really, I always wanted to help people, and in my case, it was like the family discussion was you're going to be a doctor, right? MD. And throughout my formative years, those teen years, my grandfather was a pharmacist and I would go into the pharmacy to help him. And one day he was counting out pills, and he was counting out pills for a migrant worker that, like, got cash at the end of the day, right? And this is back in the early 90s, and he goes, this guy's gotta take three of these a day for the rest of his life. They're five bucks a piece. And at that time, this guy might have been getting 50, 60 bucks at the end of a day. And he goes, he's gotta, he's gotta feed his family. He's gotta, and he looked at me, and he said, there's gotta be a better way. And I'm hoping you find it, right? And that kind of got stuck in, in, in the back of my head. I, I blacked that out, right? He died a year or two later. And the trauma of that kind of suppressed some of those memories. And I was in college as a pre-med, as most, aspiring doctors are. And through a series of events that I can only describe as either divine intervention or serendipitous or what, however you want to say it. I ended up back home at another college with like shooting to go the D. O. route. Oh, you're still a doctor. It's just a different, title. And I got a postcard in the mail for an acupuncture school in the intercession of my junior year. And it was for an open house. And I went to the open house and I, like, I was filling out the paperwork by the time I got home. Two weeks later, I was enrolled and because I had so many credits beforehand, I actually got into the master's program already, right? They were going to give you a bachelor's alongside of it. So I skipped my senior year and just kept on going.

Tom Jackobs: 3:58

So what degree was that ultimately?

Tom Ingegno: 4:03

So, the bachelor's is professional health science. The previous terminal level was a Masters of Science in Oriental Medicine. We shy away from that word Oriental now. We're calling it East Asian Medicine for several reasons. It's more encompassing and less possibly racially fueled. And then we were told during the time that the program was written at a doctorate level and eventually when they got the accreditation they would grandfather us in. But as most colleges see everything as dollar signs, the doctorate program, when it was made available, was like, you can come back. And it was funny because I did the doctorate after being out for, I think, 18 years in practice. And the only reason I did it was because traditionally my program had started as like, a second career for people. So I was in school in my twenties and the average age of an acupuncture student was 35 at the program I

Tom Jackobs: 4:57

Oh, wow.

Tom Ingegno: 4:59

So when I went back for the doctor and I'm like, well, I don't really need it. I have an established practice. I was already in the clinic I'm in now. And at the same time I said, look, I'm too young. If somebody else has a doctorate and they're my age. and where you're just looking at the title, they won't see my years and years experience. So I went back and I did the doctorate and the doctorate was only an additional year. But you know, it, it bridged some gaps for me. The main concentration in that was to like literally bridge the gap between Eastern and Western. So we looked at a lot of clinical research. We looked at a lot of peer reviewed studies. How do I articulate this better to physicians and people in the Western world that don't want to sit there and hear about qi and channels and meridians and do that in a way that it doesn't cheapen the medicine that I hold so dear. So in that regard, it was definitely worth it. qi and channels and meridians It also made me write a CV, which I never had. You look back and you go, you're self employed, right? You're just grinding. And then you're like, Oh crap, I did all this stuff. Oh my God, it's 20 something pages. You're going home. It's never enough, right? There were wired like that, self employed people are so driven that it's like, That's great. Okay. Yeah. Put it over there. I got to keep moving. Like,

Tom Jackobs: 6:14

That's so funny.

Tom Ingegno: 6:15

So you got a lot, maybe the doctorate was just, to call yourself a doctor, but yeah, a couple of little bells and whistles.

Tom Jackobs: 6:21

Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I think I had to create a CV for my visa application here in Taiwan. I was like, what? Remind me what a CV is. So yeah, I was like, never like in 20 years, haven't done a resume or whatever, that's crazy.

Tom Ingegno: 6:38

Yeah. I think my resume is still the one I used for to get into the acupuncture program. I never updated that. And then I applied for I, we're right near Johns Hopkins. I'm in Baltimore, Maryland. And a woman had me come in to talk to, she was a psychologist. She had me talk to like all these mental health students, and this merger between like the mental and the physical that, that exists in East Asian medicine so well. And at the end, she goes, look, I'm, I want to pitch you to teach, an elective here. And she goes, send me your CV. And I'm like, Oh, I don't have one of those. And I updated a resume. And then I saw like in her email signature, she had a link to her CV. And I'm like, Oh my God. It was like, it was 15 pages long. It was filled with like research articles and I went, oh, I'm not playing the same game you are. Like I didn't know. But then the doctorate made me sit down and literally write everything that I've ever done in this field. And that was an exercise that surprisingly even alongside other like research projects, I think that one was more tedious. Going back and going, I was on that show and I, oh, I wrote that thing for this, and oh, is that website still even existing?

Tom Jackobs: 7:51

But what a great exercise just to recap what your career had been up to that point.

Tom Ingegno: 7:57

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 7:58

In having your heart led business and in being in practice for as long as you have. There had to have been times that were a bit tough in terms of making the choice between, profit and being a heart led business. And how did you navigate that?

Tom Ingegno: 8:14

I hate to say this, but you know, I've been practicing 23 years. It's still a decision I have to deal with on the regular. I mean, it's the profit margins for us were insurance based for acupuncture. The margins aren't big. I pay my staff well. You know, they deserved it. I think the thing that keeps me choosing to go in the direction I'm going in, rather than, closing up shop and figuring out a way to cash in, if you will is the people that are coming in the team that's developed. I just finished, about a year ago, I finished a Goldman Sachs small business training, right? And we cover every aspect of business. It was absolutely amazing. I recommend it to any self employed or business owner. And we got to the part on the team, on the group, right? And all these people are going, Oh, do you know how hard it is to find somebody? And literally 90 percent of my staff has showed up at my door. Like, right? Hey I see what you're doing. I've heard about you and like those things when they show up and they're like, we have an intern now. I didn't ask for an intern. She showed up one day and said, can I just follow you around? And it's, Baltimore is, we call it Smalltimore. It's a small city. Everybody knows everybody. So you watch what you say. But within that to have that reputation of like, look, these guys really care and to have people that are like bitching about the younger generations, not wanting to work. And these guys go, Above and beyond every day. And it's not because I'm going like, you guys need to do this. It's like, I come in and things are taken care of. And Hey, Tom, this patient called, they had this question. I told them that, is that okay? You troubleshot for me. And you did it better than I would have. And it's because they get that mission. They get the, we're here to help people. Right? So, even when it's like, well, what do we do here? We really should charge them this. We really should charge them that. Like, we're not just going, here's the number. It's what is this person going through and what can they actually afford this and how can we help them? So, with that, sometimes you come up a little short, but more times than not you're really there for another person. And to have that team, to have that community of people coming in that understand that. That'll always make me choose that over just gross profits. Yes, I want to be a millionaire, but I don't want to do it of anybody's back singly. I want to make it comfortable and accessible as many people as possible.

Tom Jackobs: 10:49

So, think about the staff that didn't happen overnight and it wasn't a mistake. So what did you specifically do to create an environment for the staff to thrive like that and carry on your mission?

Tom Ingegno: 11:06

yeah, I think when people come aboard, um, they see me, I get emotional. I mean, you're not that you're supposed to be stoic. But you know, and you're not supposed to internalize what the patient's going through, but you should have an, a tremendous amount of empathy and compassion, right? So I, look, I'm a jackass. I curse in the clinic all the time. I'm loud. I'm not the typical acupuncturist. I'm not that stereotypical, quiet little thing that kind of creeps in, put some needles in, goes out. I tell jokes. I say things I probably shouldn't say in the clinic, but it's all coming from a place of. How can I help? How can I improve my craft? And when we found our first kind of crew that shifted, right? Like it wasn't always like that. But then people who were coming into my clinic as patients were like, look, are you looking for help? And we started hiring people based on that, like, oh, I've got a cousin or hey, my, spouse is looking for some work. And then eventually I remember, oh God, Ashley Ashley was my office manager, and I, she came in I hired her like immediately before we closed for COVID.

Tom Jackobs: 12:15

Oh, wow.

Tom Ingegno: 12:16

and I was like look we're not starting why there's an order for us to, shelter in place, basically. So we were in communication with her and one of my now associates, who was an acupuncture student, Corey and the two of them just hung out, waited for us to open back up and we're ready to go. And that was, with all the horrible stuff that happened with COVID, that was a do over for me. It was this kind of time where I could go, look, I think we did this well. Here's what I don't think we did well, and we started training off of that. Like, here's the things I want to see in this clinic. And when Ashley graduated, she got a job and it's like a perfect job for her, right? I mean, she just, she's just such an amazing, vibrant person that while I was sad to see her leave, I was like a proud dad. It's like, Oh my God, you're doing the thing, right? She's now in a heart led position, right? And here I am going, Oh my God, I'm losing my right hand, man. But at the same time, she goes, don't worry. I found two people. She brought in two front desk people and I'm like, I didn't even meet them. And then I met them and I went, Oh my, yeah, no, they're perfect.

Tom Jackobs: 13:30

Yeah.

Tom Ingegno: 13:31

They're perfect. And same thing. They just love what they do. I had friends over and we did a little thing at my office and one of them said, you want me to hang out and help you so you can just converse with them rather than run people through these machines? And I go, yeah, totally. And they kept going, no, what's he really like as a boss? And she, she goes, no, you don't understand. This is the best job I've ever had. I get to help people. I feel like I'm making a difference in their life. Right? So I'm like, Oh, she gets it. And it turns out her sister's an acupuncturist, so she's like around it all the time anyway, but you know, when you come at it. And you have to transmit that passion. You have to transmit that mission. And it's not just in the words you say, you can't just say, Hey, we're here for the people, right? It's, Hey, Tom, look, I noticed this. Okay. Please call that person, tell them X, Y, and Z and let them know they can reach out to me directly. If they need anything, right? Let them know you're there. Let them know you're accountable and you're showing up and those things, when they see that, that starts to register and, that, that happened over time. This staff has been with me since COVID the longest of any staff I've had. We need another massage therapist. We're working on that, but, the majority of them really just, really just like the space. They get to like what they do. They, I'm not yelling at people. This is fortunately not one of those positions where like. And the other thing is, and I think this is silly in a lot of things and especially in the corporate world, you mess up as long as no one dies, man, come, is it, can't we go back and fix this? I'd rather have it fixed and hey, look, we all learned something here. As, as long as I don't have to put a padlock on the door and go, no yeah let's take this as a moment to learn and figure out how to do this better. And I think the staff gets that. They know they can come to me and go, look I, need this day off or, and I'm not going to go, Oh my God, no, you need to show up. Because at the end of the day when you're trying to help people It has to happen, like, this is a lesson I'm trying to learn. It has to happen within yourself first, right? So I have to be more gentle with myself and more tender with myself. And that's going to be a lifelong lesson but the staff that's around me, the ones that are making me look good, I have to make sure that they're comfortable and functioning well, Hey, do you need anything is a thing I ask a lot, And it's like, they might ask for more money and it's like, I don't know if I can do that, but let me see how I can better support. Right? So, we really try and have that open and honest conversation. I don't like when companies say we're a family, right? That always sounds so canned. And so, but to actually care about the people that are working with you on a level, like, like a, an appropriate level, but you know, hey, this is another person that has needs and sometimes needs a hand up and some help. And then that resonates directly to the people that are walking in the front door. They feel it. They get it.

Tom Jackobs: 16:26

In just summarizing that, you set the tone with the employees, you take care of the employees, who then further take care of the patients that come in to the door. That's, I mean, that's how business should be run. Unfortunately, you see some of these organizations, I've been in corporate work for 12 years when I first got out of school and it was not, we don't take care of our people first. We take care of our shareholders first.

Tom Ingegno: 16:56

Yeah, run them into the ground and, honestly, if somebody dies on the job, there's a job listing an hour later up on Indeed. When Ashley left, I told that story. I had two other things happen. I had somebody that had been working with us. She also got a dream job and I'm going, Oh my God, all my staff is graduating. And then who my office manager now, her name's Hannah. We call her Hank. She came with that nickname. I love it. I don't want to change it. She looked at me that same week, like two days later and she goes, I know what I want to do with my life. I go, what? And she goes, I want to be an accumulator. And like, I literally I cried. I was like are you kidding me? Like this bittersweet thing. And then I was like now I'm thinking, all right, she's got another year and a half. We're going to have to get a bigger office. I need more treatment rooms. I'm like, because these people that, I hear these horror stories of people not being able to find good people and I'm like, I'm, I literally don't have places to put them. So I, I mean, a great problem to have and, those people. Specialy Hank, I think she gets it all and I think she's going to be a terrific acupuncturist. I mean, Corey who's been out a few years now. God, I wish I had her clinical prowess when I was that young, I'd be so much further along now. And they're just compassionate. They're level headed. They're thinking with their hearts and their heads, every single one of them. And really I'm sorry, I'm like gushing over them, but I have like 10 people that I really care about.

Tom Jackobs: 18:26

Well, I mean, it does sound like a family, to be honest. Yeah.

Tom Ingegno: 18:33

And, like, I mean, they hang out, they go to each other's kids birthday parties and stuff, and it's I like that. It's, if you're gonna be, if you're gonna be somewhere the majority of the day, Isn't it great to be somewhere where you're appreciated and where you like what you're doing and where you have pleasant interactions with people? I mean, God, if I sat in the car for two hours I would have, there would have been some road rage.

18:56

I

Tom Ingegno: 18:56

wouldn't be having this interview right now. You'd be like, that guy does not have a heart led business but to get to like, be revitalized by the people that work for me. Like, you don't, like, I get burnt out pretty easily cause I'm dumping my heart and soul into this. And like, Hey Tom, do you need anything? Like, they'll ask me.

Tom Jackobs: 19:13

Oh, that's awesome.

Tom Ingegno: 19:14

It's like, wow. Oh God. It's so, so amazing.

Tom Jackobs: 19:17

Well, it's a testament to your leadership as well. And to contrast that the people that are complaining, oh, I can't find good staff. They really need to look internally and see why they're repelling good staff. Because that's really what it is.

Tom Ingegno: 19:30

Oh yeah. Or why their best people are leaving. That's the other thing. They get somebody great and they're like, I don't know why this person left. And I'm like, I don't think you were listening to them. They probably gave you signals all the way along and you're like, they didn't like the 60 hour work week.

Tom Jackobs: 19:44

Or the toxic work environment.

Tom Ingegno: 19:46

Well, and I used to say things like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to ask you to do anything. I wouldn't do myself. So sometimes that's me scrubbing a toilet, but once again, lead by example. And then I come in and things are clean, and things are put away, and things that, like, I didn't, did you reorganize this? Yeah. Oh, I didn't ask you to do that. Yeah, but I, it was, it figured I'd clean it up for you. I,

Tom Jackobs: 20:08

Yeah, that's great. So how do you balance then leading with the heart, taking care of your staff and also making a profit?

Tom Ingegno: 20:20

I, that, that is something, that that you're, I'm constantly trying to re navigate. So there's times when we have cash and I don't have time and there's times where I don't have cash and I have plenty of time. And with that, what I'm trying to do is look at, I took COVID as this opportunity to see where gaps were, right? Like even a full clinic, what does that look like? What kind of profit margin would that be a full clinic? And then not only that, how do I have the biggest impact on people that can't get to my clinic? So I'm doing podcasts like this one. Why? To share the message of natural health. I wrote a book to like further impact people that may be not in the area that want to take some practices into their own hands. I'm looking to lecture one, cause that'll feed back to the brick and mortar for people that are in Baltimore and in town. Two, it'll establish credibility. We talk about that a lot, right? Why'd you write the book? Oh, it's not going to be a New York times bestseller. Hopefully I sell a hundred of them. Yeah. But the idea is we've already sold over a hundred. I'm very happy about that. But with that, how do I have that impact on a bigger scale? So I think for me It's the scalability thing. That's how I'm going to get into that profit area that I want. So once again, could I bleed a hundred patients as much as possible? Yeah, I probably could and do okay. Or can I get to a thousand people, a hundred thousand people and just say, Hey, look here's a little bit of my knowledge for a little cost. Is that worth it to you? Right? And be able to share. And then to the point in your book, follow up. Well, what else can I do for you? How can I better serve you? How can I get to the root of your problems? And I'm enjoying these conversations that I'm having with podcasts. We have our own podcast and, I'm going to say this, cause I just found this out yesterday. We were nominated for best acupuncturist in Baltimore by the Baltimore Sun. And then unbeknownst to me, my podcast Irreverent Health was nominated for best podcast. And I'm like, which one of you bastards did that? There's like 10 listeners.

Tom Jackobs: 22:26

Yeah.

Tom Ingegno: 22:27

Which one of you nominated us? But I think it's the testament that like people are getting that mission. So, yeah, am I worried about finances? Yeah, because I have to keep the doors open. I have to keep my family and clothes and food and, in a shelter. But within that, I think the further I go down this. That scalability is there, and it's not a heavy lift because I'm not burdening somebody. Like, look, if I had an amazing product that cost a significant amount of money, yeah, I'd be selling that. But what I have costs what it costs, and how can I deliver that the best way possible so more people want it is what I'm trying to do.

Tom Jackobs: 23:07

Okay. No, that totally makes sense. And falls in line with the whole, think about the people first and the value that you're providing to them. And then the profit will happen as long as you're, not selling something for less than it costs to make.

Tom Ingegno: 23:25

No! We are definitely not. Fair market value, right? They'll say, what does the market bear? And I think we're right there. I think the quality and level is at the high end of what we do. And because we're dealing with insurance, we're a little restricted in that, right? I can't be like, I'll write 10, 000 down on the bill. They'll go, Hey, we'll give you 80 bucks. Take it or leave it. No, you signed a contract, man. But when you have people that get that, that you're driven to actually improving their lives, they check in a lot more, right? We have a membership model for some of the services that are not practitioner driven. Right? And COVID made that shift. Oh, I gotta take care of my health. I have to invest. Let me pay this little bit. Come in. Check in with the crew that's there. They know what I'm going through. They know my family. They know, what I did over the weekend. And, I get to hang out, I get to talk to people and have it be a real community, right? One of the greatest things, and we're talking about the business side of this there, there's a story and I don't know when it happened historically, right? I'm not a historian but like the village healer, the acupuncturist, the doctor, whatever you want to call them at that time in China, everybody gave the guy a little bit of money as long, so long as you were healthy. If you got sick, you didn't pay. So not only is it in the practitioner's best interest to go like, do you need anything? Are you feeling okay? You sleeping? Did you get, do you get something to eat? Making sure that you're feeling optimal. So that's like, I can't just be like, all right, everybody give me 20 bucks

Tom Jackobs: 24:59

Well,

Tom Ingegno: 24:59

stop if you feel sick.

Tom Jackobs: 25:01

yeah. But it incentivizes the practitioner to make sure everybody's healthy and not sick. I mean, that would be an interesting insurance model that the practitioner only gets paid for the patients that don't come in.

Tom Ingegno: 25:15

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs: 25:16

Yeah.

Tom Ingegno: 25:16

Yeah. And we're starting to see this. What do they call it? They call it outcome based, payment, right? And it's a weird model. They're starting to see it on a bigger scale because services like ours, where it's like a therapy and we don't exactly know how many treatments you're going to need. It's a little bit trickier, but the membership model for these services that we, that, that are unassisted, that don't need a clinician for why not look at that like that? Why? Because it should be more like a gym. Why? Because you're not going to go to the gym once and now all of a sudden your cardiovascular health and your muscle testing and your bone density is going to be where you want it to be. But you know, that is a commitment. And look, we're doing really well with the membership model. Our clinic, the practitioner part is they're busy, and you get more skill by practicing. So we're increasing our value to our patients and we're into the community as a whole. And, I was at an event and the governor and this blew me away. Wow. I sound like I'm bragging now. But the governor came up to me at this event, right? And, I'm not one of these guys that's gonna throw myself in front and like, Let's take a photo and here's my card. And he goes, Hey man, I heard about your spot from at least six different people. Now, it's one thing for a politician to say like, Oh, I love that. Or I heard you're good or some, but like, that's no. Then I'm literally going through my phone going, alright, which one knows the governor? Who was it? But no, really. He's in Annapolis, he's not in Baltimore, and he heard of us. And that is that community building that is that reputation that's taking care of people that eventually pays out, right?

Tom Jackobs: 26:59

It's good to be recognized as well. That's great for what you do. And I, talking about back to your, the membership model, and then the practitioners being very busy. Do you feel like the membership model is feeding the practitioners because you're getting the people acclimated to coming in more often?

Tom Ingegno: 27:17

Goes in both directions, right? So my mentor used to he had a a teacher in Japan who was blind. His name was Goto Sensei. Now watch it. That's not the blind one. And I messed that story up, but he would say that he doesn't give advice because it wastes his breath and hurts the patient's ears. So my teacher said, I heard you just have a conversation about what a guy should be eating. And he goes no. He asked, right? So the driving force was this person was ready to accept that information. So we have a bunch of services. People can come in, quote unquote, a la carte, get that one thing. But what we see happening is at a certain point, and this goes both directions from the membership. And from the, the massage and the acupuncture and all the private services we do, where they want to own their health. And they go, what else do you do here that you think would be appropriate? Right. And then we get this time to educate and say, what do you think of this? Right? And that's where we see the crossover and it goes in both directions. Maybe they're just coming in for like the cold plunge and they go, Oh, you got a sauna too? Oh, let me do the cold plunge and then the sauna. And hey, you know what? I was at the gym this weekend. This happened. What do you got? Okay, well, maybe you need acupuncture this week or let's try some cupping, right? So it's not about being all things to all people. It's just understanding what works and plays well together. And then how to distribute that when it's appropriate to the person that needs it at that time. And I think, yeah, we get a lot of crossover in both directions

Tom Jackobs: 28:53

That's nice. That's good. Smart. Awesome. Well, we're getting to the end of our time together. So I'd love for you to share with the audience how they can learn a little bit more about you and your practice and maybe some of your books.

Tom Ingegno: 29:07

Yeah. So, the big one is that's gonna be our clinic website. It is the juggernaut. It has everything it'll fit. You'll find all about me. If people want to book me for lectures or figure out where the book is it's charmcityintegrative.com. If you're looking for the book, I teach how to do cupping safely without fire at home. The book is called the cupping book and the website is called thecuppingbook.com. But if you go to charmcityintegrative.com, you will find out all about me, the clinic, and every link you need will be there.

Tom Jackobs: 29:39

Awesome. We'll be sure to put that into the show notes as well. So that'll be easy for everybody to find. So Tom, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your heart with all of our audience. I certainly appreciate it.

Tom Ingegno: 29:52

Alright, Tom, this was so much fun. Thank you for having me.

Tom Jackobs: 29:55

Absolutely! And as a reminder to our listeners, if you could do what other smart and considerate listeners do, and that is sharing this podcast with those that are having a heart led business and maybe having a little struggle with their profit and understanding how to integrate both of those things together. This show is all about helping them in sharing stories from others that are going through or have gone through similar situations. So until next time, lead with your heart.

Speaker 2: 30:24

You've been listening to the Heart Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs. Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.